I had a whole long post typed up, but I got lost in minutiae, so I’m gonna try to keep this simple.
For a defensive/training rifle that would also be used for some competitive practical shooting (I really like the idea of using the same rifle for training and competition to build skill.) Would you rather have a 6.7 pound rifle with a T1 or a 7.7 pound rifle with a TR24. I’ve got both optics, and I’m split about which one to use on this rifle.
Obviously defensive use would likely be at in-home distances. Training usually takes place from 0-200 yards. Competitions are usually from 0-300 yards. Targets range from full size silhouettes at close ranges to 8" plates at 300. From a practical standpoint small targets could be a tight headshot at 200 in a class, or having to ID a target that blends well with a background.
Here are the pros and cons as I see them:
T1
Pros: lightweight, small, fast up close, good accuracy on targets you can see with the naked eye, excellent low light performance
Cons: hard to ID targets at longer range, harder to make tight shots on small targets
TR24
Pros: easier to ID targets at longer range, easier to make tight shots, still very fast up close, surprisingly good performance in low light
Cons: heavy
My main concern is that I’d be taking on an extra 16 ounces with the TR24 for an optic that’s really only significantly better in a small number of cases. I realize that the likely defensive use of the rifle would be up close, and the T1 would be an advantage there.
What are your guys’ thoughts? I’ll try to fill in any additional info if anyone has any questions.
I went from a EOTech to my TR24, even though it added weight, it opened up the possibilities of what I can do to it. I find the TR24 as good as a RDS for close range work, and it has a major advantage on shots on smaller targets past 100m.
I had thought about going back to a RDS, but after I shot my TR24 in a recent match, I wiped that idea out.
My preference for this type of set up is an Aimpoint with a flip out magnifier.
I’ve rarely, if ever, used the 2x or 3x settings on a TR24. The majority of use that I see is at 1x for fast acquisition of targets, or spinning the knob all the way to 4x for further distance targets.
This type of use is why I prefer the magnifier/RDO. Using a true 1x red dot for close targets is easier and faster for me. The TR24 is an excellent optic at 1x, but it will never be like looking through two piece of clear lens, ala the Aimpoint.
Furthermore, flipping the magnifier into place is quicker than turning that dial, even with a cat tail of some sort installed.
Lastly, I prefer a single dot as an aiming reference over the chevron on a stick. I like being able to see what’s below my intended POA just as much as seeing what’s above it. This can be especially helpful if you’re shooting distances far enough where holdover may come into play.
The majority of my shooting in competition, training, and possible defensive use can be handled well with a 1x red dot. If I need to step out further than the capabilities of that, I like to just grab the magnifier and slap it into place.
Both are great optics and both will do the job. If forced to choose, I like the versatility of the magnifier/RDO.
Another option is to leave the t1 on the carbine as the default, and replace it with the tr24 for matches. Train with both. If using quick detach/attach mounts should be easy with min change of impact.
Mark
Thanks for the input so far guys. I actually have an Aimpoint magnifier too, so I’ll hit the range tomorrow with the TR24 and T1/mag and give them a head-to-head comparison. I’ve used the magnifier in the past and not been a huge fan, but it’ll be interesting to test it back to back with the TR24.
I have used an M4 with a flip to side magnifier for a few years on my patrol rifle, I have also used a TA 33 with a off set red dot and now I am using a 1-6 Swarovski. The variable scope is faster and easier to change from one power to the next with a cat tail vs flipping the magnifier out of the way in my range drills. I also use the middle power ranges not just the lowest and the highest. The magnifier system was my least favorite. The red dot looks like a cluster of grapes to my eyes when magnified and was not nearly as precise. There is no easy way to dial in for long range shots you have to hold into space above the target and pray unless you have a Eotech with hold over marks. Eye relief and field of view sucks on magnifiers. Generally the Red Dot sight with a magnifier system is my least favorite solution. The variable power scope being my favorite and the Fixed Acog with a RDS in a off set mount being my second favorite. Red dot sights start to use their utility past about 200 yards. Yes you can hit further out with them given antiquate time but I can make 200 yard pistol shots given enough time as well. Variable power scopes kick the Red Dot with a Magnifier combo’s butt as a general purpose optic. That is why they dominate three gun. Anyone who feels confident in their Aimpoint with a magnifier I invite you to use it in a good three gun match.
I have been able to run the TR 24 in many off axis positions without issue…
were i could not with my 3x flip.
I find my catail levered tr 24 pretty freaking fast
but i do find my Kydex paddled TR24 even faster(thanks to Raven for that) I have used the middle settings often but not as often as 1 or 4 but i have used them
I tried all sorts of awkward positions with the TR24 and I find that, as reported by a few of you guys, it’s not a problem at all to use. At this point really the only thing keeping me from running the TR24 is the added weight. I have a class coming up in a couple of weeks and I think I’m going to try running the TR24 and see how it does and how I feel about it. In the end, 7.7 pounds isn’t terribly heavy.
I’ve used magnifiers where the dot seem to “cluster” but then on others it doesn’t seem to be an issue at all and in fact made the 2 moa dot on my M4S clearer.
In my experience the TR24 can “almost” be as fast as an RDS when shooting from standard shooting positions, when you have to get in improvised shooting positions (roll-over or brokeback prone, under/around barricades/vehicles) is when accuracy problems start to crop up with getting perfect eye alignment/centered behind the optic and having to constantly readjust your positioning to make sure you have proper alignment.
To be sure this is equally a problem when using a magnifier but inside of 200 yards I don’t seem to have any problems using only an aimpoint to make good hits. I’m not sure I understand how a magnifier is a hindrance in off-axis shooting since I find the exact opposite to be true.
Ultimately however it is personal preference however the RDS tends to be a bit more forgiving in terms of positioning and more versatile in the broadest range of applications.
For competition however I can see why many prefer the TR24 but coupled with the huge reticle, significantly increased weight, need for proper positioning I think there is certainly a “cost” involved that needs to be spelled out.
The TR24 is actually one of the lighter 1-4s out there. I think if you practiced with it on a regular basis, you’d not even notice the weight after a short while.
I pretty much do as you are intending - use the one rifle for everything - 3 Gun, courses, general range work. I have the red triangle version of the TR24 - find it is plenty quick close up (use the triangle like a dot), yet is more than good enough out to 300 yards with a 200 yard zero (and longer, if you click up - and the turrets on this scope make it easy to do that, and then return to your original zero).
Last year my friends at Raven (Hi Tom) made me some Kydex power selectors
at my request they work awesome flatter more surface area to grab on to and work great sorry they were a Test only item as far as i know
as to off axis positions with the 3x how do you get close to the ground with a 3x on a flip mount hanging off the gun to the right side
I have zero issue getting good its at distance with my aimpoint the tr 24 has a purpose use for me on hunting, game guns and truck gun.
My 3x hasnt been used since i got my tr24 in 2007
the TR24 reticle at 4x at 50 yards from tip to base and side to side covers slightly over 2 inches
same at 1x at about 7 yards
Don’t know that I’ve thought about a technique. I just do it. Maybe it’s not an issue for lefty’s but since it hangs off the left-hand side I’m not sure that’s the issue. I do have significant problems getting a clear sight picture off-axis with magnified scopes. YMMV.
If I did have significant problems I’d just take the magnifier off (QD mount) and just use the aimpoint which is perfectly serviceable out to 200 yards albeit maybe not as precise without magnification. That said if I was shooting off-axis I’d keep the 24 at 1x anyways.
I have zero issue getting good its at distance with my aimpoint the tr 24 has a purpose use for me on hunting, game guns and truck gun.
Like I said I’ve owned both the TR-21/24 and I really wanted to like them, in fact if you dig up some of my early posts you’ll find where I’ve said that I did. It has it’s virtues, it’s just not without a significant opportunity “cost”. They obviously work for the intended purpose. The purpose of my statement was to point out that there are downsides to any choice and while some like them, others don’t for quite valid reasons.
For the purposes you laid out (huunting/game/truck) I think it’s a strong optic. For a fighting gun however the opportunity cost is too great and IMO the Aimpoint/Magnifier is simply more versatile.
My 3x hasnt been used since i got my tr24 in 2007
I didn’t think the 24 was released until 2009? Do you mean the 21?
the TR24 reticle at 4x at 50 yards from tip to base and side to side covers slightly over 2 inches
same at 1x at about 7 yards
It’s not really the triangle that’s the problem. It’s the fat post leading up to the triangle that gives me fits as it makes holdovers nearly impossible. If the 24 was only a triangle it would be a much improved optic. If they inverted the post/triangle as in a SUIT scope, it would be much improved. If they used a BDC reticle, it would be a much improved optic. If they made it in mil-dot it would be a much improved optic.
I had a pair of H1’s but the 4MOA dot doesn’t work with my eyes. I have a pair of M4’s now and a TR24G. I also tried a magnifier with the H1’s and it felt like looking through a straw and made the grape looking dot even worse for me.
iTS A 1X4 NOT A SNIPER SCOPE… I HAVE NO NEED FOR A BDC IN A 1X4 POWER LEARNING THE RETICLE, IM ABLE TO HIT OUT FARTHER THAN I KNEW POSSIBLE BY SIZING THE TRIANGLE…
=MIL DOTS IN A 1X4 ARE A WASTE OF TIME IF YOU ASK ME
NOW THAT SAID I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A SIMPLE FLOATING TRIANGLE OR DOT IN THE GLASS A LITTLE BIRD TOLD ME ABOUT SOME NEW THINGS COMING SOON
BUT I AGREE THEY EACH HAVE THERE PLACE THAT IS WHY I OWN THEM