This is another topic I’ve not heard covered in classes that I’ve attended. It appears that many SMEs advocate having support wrist locked forward for better gun control. If photos can be used for analysis at all, then the following grip is incorrect.
The correct grip then would look somewhat like this, I assume
Today was my “back to fundamentals” shooting session after relatively long-ish break. I’ve tried to work on my form and made sure I locked my wrist diligently. Shooting at slow pace at NRA bull’s-eye target set at 35 feet gave consistent hits 4 inch high. I am not a great shooter, but at that distance and pace, I always keep them all in black, and often better than that. Analyzing it, the only reasonable explanation I could come up is that I put too much forward tension locking that wrist and got some spring-like action there, with wrist trying to return to more natural upward position and barrel coming up as a result.
Alternative explanation would be heeling of a gun, but I don’t believe I did it this time, and when I do catch myself heeling, the accuracy error is much less than I had today.
I then relaxed my support arm wrist, basically, left it there without making an effort trying to lock it, and the very next shot drilled the target at POA.
So, after all that long-winded, here is the question: am I trying too hard? How much forward tension is recommended to lock up that support wrist? Do you just cant it forward, or do you need to feel tension in your wrist, or what?
I keep my support hand wrist at what I think of as its natural extension, as locked-out as it can be without applying excess tension to my grip. I can extend my wrist a little past this point, but not without making my support hand shake from the exertion. My grip looks more like your second picture, but I am not really forcing my wrist to lock out. When I first switched to the more locked out support hand grip it felt really awkward and I shot worse, but sometimes it is necessary to take a small step backwards to learn a technique that will allow you to shoot faster in the long run.
Your wrist really needs to be locked forward as much as you can. Essentially it locks the pinky flexor tendon making it rigid. You can duplicate the effect with empty hands by pressing the inside of the pinky with your opposite thumb. When perpindicar to the ground it’s easy to move your pinky; roll the wrist all the way forward by pointing your thumb and you’ll find your pinky is much more rigid. There are two advantages: first your thumb helps you to index on your target; second and most importantly it presses on the front strap like a lever, which counters barrel climb.
If you are shooting 4" high at just over 11 yards with a gun that is normally POA/POI you are definately either heeling or breaking the wrists up as you fire the shot, provided that your sight alignment/picture and trigger control are not an issue and that your sights have not been altered to provide POA/POI with marksmanship errors.
The gun doesn’t care how you hold it. It only cares where the sights tell it to send the bullets. Sights and trigger allow the shooter to place individual accurate shots. A proper grip puts the sights back on target faster than a poor grip, which permits delivery of rapid accurate shots.
The essense of my question is what constitutes a proper grip, specifically in regards to support wrist lock/cant. Would you be willing to comment on that?
For me, the second pic is more like what I use. I find it is more natural and gives me a better lock on the gun. It also prevents me from bumping the slide lock up in recoil, even on my Glock with the standard part. I actually have my thumb a tad lower-just the way my hand fits the gun.
I find that the high thumb in the first pic causes some influence on the slide and offers no support from the thumb.
When I shoot my hands look more or less exactly like the second pic. My strong thumb is thrown to the side out of the way ( I shoot a Glock 19). My support thumb rests along the frame but does not push on it. The support wrist cammed forward will not reveal its importance until you start increasing the speed of your shooting. Then the consistent up/down recoil characteristics become more evident. This aids in tracking the front sight.
Sorry, I thought that you had come to the conclusion that the grip you demonstrated for #2 was what is “correct”(which I agree with), but after trying it and shooting high needed to figure out what that issue was.
When I diagnose grip issues I like to use a dummy/ball drill to make sure I am seeing the actual problem and not what I just assume the problem to be.
There are lots of details to the grip that I am sure you don’t need to read again so I will just expound on your questions-
When teaching the grip I want to make sure that the shooter can feel it in the top of the fore-arm. The support hand can exert some forward pressure, though improper technique will cause anticipation.
FWIW- I find the grip to be a little weird on Glock 19s and 23s, that is to say that I can shoot as fast or faster with P226s and 92fs with better sight management.
Picture #2 will give you substantially better recoil management if you do it right.
As F2S pointed out, if your sights are aligned properly and remain aligned properly on the target throughout the trigger stroke, the bullet is going to go where you aim it no matter how you hold the gun. You can hold the gun upside down in your hand and make hits as long as you align the sights and press the trigger properly.
[QUOTE=Failure2Stop;471179]
When teaching the grip I want to make sure that the shooter can feel it in the top of the fore-arm. [QUOTE]
Excellent, thank you, that’s exactly what I was looking for.
I am not sure if I was clear in what I was trying to express, but my “self-diagnosis”, for what it’s worth, was that I was over-doing the effort to cant that wrist forward.
I did do ball and dummy too; I do it during 80% + of my practice trips to the range, but I wasn’t cognizant of my support wrist during that drill. In retrospect, should’ve paid more attention.
Outside of the bastion of the Modern Technique, it’s hard to find someone teaching other than an aggressive thumbs forward grip. You’ll find a surprising number of variations on the details of the offhand position but they are much more similar than dissimilar.
BMFB,
If you aren’t getting enough force out of your support hand, is it because your stance is bladed to one side (right side)? Try rolling your right shoulder forward to square up your stance and bring that left hand in a bit. Just a thought based on what you provided, if you’re standing square, perhaps one arm is longer than the other (kidding).
If you feel you are getting more muzzle flip when switching from #1 to #2, you are either doing it wrong or you’re an unusual case. Not saying it’s impossible or that you’re a mutant who should be hunted down, burned, drawn and quartered, beheaded, eviscerated, and … wait, I lost my train of thought.
On the Beretta, if your strong side thumb is riding the slide release lever, just move it outboard a smidge. It’s unusual feeling, especially if you’re used to riding a 1911 lever. But quite a few folks have to do it with Berettas, and tons of people have to do it with SIGs. Once you get accustomed to it, it’s a non-issue.
You want to grip with your weak hand like a clamp, side to side pressure on the gun. If you’re doing it right – and it’s new to you – you’ll feel it become uncomfortable along the top (thumb side) of your forearm pretty quickly. This goes away with practice, of course, but until you get used to it it’s very noticeable.
You also want to make sure you are getting 360 degree coverage around the grips. The bottoms of your palms should be touching. If there is a gap between your hands, the gun will torque into that spot each time and it will be much harder to keep your sights moving in a consistent, trackable path.
Thanks for bringing it up. I try to put clamping action on that grip and I do not try to pull back much, but, in all honesty, I also feel that my grip is more secure with lesser amount of forward wrist cant.
P.S. Looks like Todd not only shoots faster than I, but types too.
Keep in mind that many times switching to a new (correct) technique from a comfortable (incorrect) technique will initially produce lousy results. That is until you get used to it and actually put several hundred rounds downrange with the new technique.
A smart guy once told me that when working with a new technique you need ‘correct repetition over time’ before you can make an educated decision as to the value for you. When I transitioned to a thumbs forward grip thirteen years ago it felt horribly uncomfortable, but the impact on my shooting was undeniable.
I sent this in an email to one of the guys who attended my class last weekend:
You’re sort of in a sucky position. You’ve got a GOOD reload. But to make it GREAT, you’re going to have to take a big step backwards and have a MEDIOCRE reload for a while. You’ve got to work off bad habits. It’s the whole “one step back, two steps forward” thing. And it sucks. Because we all have a certain amount of ego attached to our shooting, and anything that turns in a worse score than last week is innately evil.
The #1 mistake I see good shooters make in a class is that many of them won’t slow down and give new approaches a chance. They want to be the first guy to get his shots off, and the easiest way to do that is to stick with what they know. Getting some people to do a slow draw or a slow reload is like pulling teeth.
The guy who actually stops and looks at his grip after a draw or reload is the guy who is going to get the new grip right. The guy who actually goes slowly to do a real press out on every draw is the guy who’s going to habituate that skill soonest. Etc.
I have found practicing my drawstroke next to a mirror has been invaluable.
The technique Todd showed us to get on sights faster is much more easily realized when you can watch yourself and get instant feedback. I now know exactly where in relation to my face to present the pistol.
