I have taken classes that taught you to switch sides when shooting around cover on your support (weak side) side. I have also been taught in other classes its best to just do an isralie (sorry spelling) lean. To lean out and expose more of your body but shoot faster and more accurately making your over all exposure time less. What is everyones take on it here. Who regularly practices with both hands when using a long gun. I practice with my support hand with a pistol in case my weapon hard is injuried.
Pat
Training your reaction (support) side is never a bad idea. You mentioned doing so with a pistol for a good reason. The same scenario can apply to a long gun.
A 16" carbine without a metric ton of lights and lasers hanging off the front can be run more effectively one handed than not shooting at all.
Run a few drills on the other shoulder sometime and compare your times. It’s a hasty way to do things but the more time you spend outside your comfort zone, the bigger that comfort zone becomes when you step back inside it.
In real life I would probably not try to shoot from my left (support side) unless I could not shoot from my right.
I think for most of us we do not have the range time to learn to shoot from the support side INTENTIONALLY. I do one handed drills, and shoot from my left but its nowhere near as good from my right. I think it would be a bigger liability trying to do this unless for some reason, like a GSW, I cannot shoot from my right.
If you have the training, and the range time to get good with your support then that is one thing. Just like in baseball there are very few true ambi hitters. You dont see people switches sides just because…
If you look at how much is exposed in
- Strong-side shooting in a support-side lean (i.e. RH shooting leaning out to the left)
vs. - Support-side shooting in support-side lean (i.e. LH shooting leaning out to the left)
#1 exposes your entire support shoulder, arm, both eyes, your entire head, and close to 20% of your upper-body.
#2 exposes your support hand, support eye, and maybe 20% of your head.
And I can’t imagine anyone shooting so horribly with their support-side that they’re better off exposing probably 3-5x more meat just to hit the target (and if that’s the case, the solution is to train more, not to let more of you get shot at). Not to mention, support-side shooting, whether with cover or on the square range, will better prepare you if your strong-side is disabled.
“Israeli lean” or whatever it’s called sounds like a cop-out propagated by people who are too lazy or afraid to shoot support-side.
I shoot a decent amount from my left side with a carbine, usually for two reasons:
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Barricade drills: This is close in (25yd) and its really an exercise in rapidly manipulating the gun to suit available cover. Hits are slower and less accurate than shooting off the dominant side at this distance.
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Prone/Supported Distance: This is kind of new to me, since I’ve only now decided to make the leap to learning good trigger manipulation off my left. I’m left eye dominant, and have a bit better vision from my left eye, so to make the most of longer shots (200-300yd) with my non-magnified RDO’s, I shoot from my left. I still need to fine-tune the trigger manipulation from my left hand, but I can land much more accurate hits due to the better eyesight.
For everything else, I shoot off the right, since I’m right-handed. I think shoulder swapping is an acceptable time-suck for a precise shot at distance, and its benefits for cover utilization are obvious. If I got my trigger control up to speed on my left, I’m sure I might even use that as my default shooting side for rifle.
As for the cover debate, if the goal is to shoot with minimal danger to yourself, you need to switch shoulders, IMHO. Just look in a mirror.
However, if the situation demands that you act more quickly and more violently, it might be worth the risk to just shoot off the dominant shoulder and expose more. To me, this is only preferable if you need aggressive action to push yourself on the BG.
In my limited experience with airsoft and paintball, aggressiveness and speed trump well thought-out but slowly executed tactics any day. There’s a reason why pro’s talk about ‘aggressiveness of action’.
Some people are naturally better at it than others. For me, even though I do shoot lefty when I can, am much better off trying to hit a target with my right side.
YMMV but Ive seen very few people who are competent switching sides, and I doubt most people have the resources to put 100% effort into learning it. Im not lazy enough to do it but at the same time I cant shoot thousands of rounds a month getting fully proficient in every shooting style. I think most (not all) are better off sticking to their strong side even if it means exposing more of their body. How often are you going to be behind bullet proof cover anyways? Not a car, house, building, ect.
Belmont makes a very good point about training more. While I think Complication is right about the need for more training, a lot of us can barely afford to shoot enough to stay close to where we want to be using our strong side. So I think for many people the decision to shoot support side has to be made based on an honest assessment of our skills and the limited round count we can apply to it.
I can’t afford to shoot much as it is, and very rarely shoot a long gun from the support side. When I do I’m a duck out of water. I’m glad this was brought up, because I should make an attempt to put more time in it, even if it’s just dry fire to get used to the feel of the weapon being on that side.
Oh, compared to righty, I’m awful at left-hand shooting, especially when I’m worried about leaning out and all that fun stuff.
But you’re either
A) shooting at somewhat short ranges in which case you just need to be “combat effective” in your accuracy (hardly a strain for anyone at short ranges).
B) shooting at longer ranges where you need to be much more accurate (in which case exposure is less important but also, you can shoot lefty and just take more time)
C) you’re not shooting, but rather clearing around a corner in which case, less exposure means you are less likely to be detected, give your target less time to see your support arm coming around the corner (same reason you round corners with pistols in retention, not at full extension), and can get back behind cover if you get shot at.
And accuracy training isn’t expensive, if you think about it.
If you’re bad enough at support-side that you’re better off throwing half your body around a corner to shoot strong-side, then 50 rounds in a training session should be A LOT. If you’re so awful at it, you should be going slow instead of wasting time, bullets, and money by going too fast for yourself.
If you’re good enough at support-side shooting that you can burn through 50 rounds in an training session shooting support-side and not be wasting ammo, then congratulations, I guarantee you that you’re good enough at support-side that exposing your body to shoot strong-side is a bad idea.
You’re either bad enough that it’s cheap to train or good enough that you don’t need to worry about having to shoot strong-side on a support-side lean.
I mean, you’ve got to be VERY bad at support-side to throw your big fat melon around a corner. So if your “honest assessment” of your skills shows you such a glaring deficit, then that’s what your should FOCUS on training.
If you go to the range and just shoot what you’re good at, at speeds you’re good at, at ranges you’re good at, then you’re throwing money and time away.
I’m not saying “go out there and practice support-side shooting on support-side leans and nothing else.” But if you’re going out there and practicing shooting from behind cover and you’re so confident in your strong-side abilities, then cut back on that practice and go out there until you’re at least combat-effective with your support-side.
Also, if you get shot or stabbed in your strong-side, are grabbing/holding your kid with your strong-side, or any other the other myriad scenarios where your strong-side can’t pull the trigger and/or support the gun, then you’re absolutely fucked if you don’t train support-side shooting enough to hit the broad side of a barn.
I mean, to keep things simple, that alone should answer the question of “Should I get good with support-side shooting?”
Totally agree about throwing away money if you’re only doing what you are already good at.
What I meant about an honest assessment was knowing if you are even truly good and confident with at least your strong side. If there is room for a lot of improvement before someone is even combat effective strong side, then I think that’s where their focus should be. If like you said, someone is already gtg there, then it’s definitely time to step out of their comfort zone. I just know that I see people at the range shooting a thousand and one different drills, and not being worth a damn at any of them. They forever stay terrible at everything instead of at least getting decent at something. A person has to walk before they can run is what I’m really getting at, so they shouldn’t get ahead of themselves.
ETA: Also agree that everyone should have the goal of getting good with their support side. Just saying people have to balance priorities with limited available time.
I train on both. Even if you think you’re likely to choose to lean, it’s still worthwhile.
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If you don’t practice off-hand, you won’t be able to do it if you need to. If you’re practicing off-hand, how are you getting there? Gun juggling? Build the skill right the first time and it lasts.
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I believe that being able to shoot right handed off the right side of cover and left handed off the left side of cover is ideal. Under stress on a bad day, I may not do it, but I’m more likely to if I’m comfortable and practiced with the skill. I’m more accurate shooting off-hand using cover as a stable platform than I am leaning around it strong-hand.
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If you compete (IDPA DMG, for example), there may be required hand transitions/off-hand shots. Having practiced this put me way ahead of the curve in the local 2-gun matches a while back. Easily shaved multiple seconds off that I didn’t spend juggling the gun, strangling myself with the sling and trying to figure out how to get a sight picture.
Oh definitely. I think there’s a few built-in “sanity checks” here, though.
The first is that support-side shooting is a basic position everyone who is training, should be able to do with reasonable effect. Support-side shooting is one of the most basic shooting positions that people should be practicing (i.e. strong-side supported, standing, kneeling, prone, support-side supported). Support-side shooting isn’t an “advanced” technique. Once you’re decent at it standing or kneeling or whatever, you should be good enough at it shooting from cover when you progress to that point.
The second is that if you can’t hit shit, you shouldn’t be doing more advanced drills like shooting from cover. If you’re doing it and you can’t hit anything, then you should take a step back and return to basics.
Are there people who get way ahead of themselves? Absolutely. But if you’re doing any training at all, support-side shooting deserves a place in your list of drills. And if you’re legitimately ready to practice shooting from cover, then you should be good enough at support-side shooting to be combat effective.
Edit: If you only ever go to the range to go plinking or only go to the range once or twice a year, then support-side shooting of any kind is a waste of your time. But in those cases, you don’t actually want to train with your gun, you just want to make it go boom.
I believe shooting from the support side is a valuable skill. While I’m not going to switch shoulders during movement as some would promote I do switch shoulders when taking a left side barricade/cover position.
As stated it’s also a good idea just in case your strong arm is disabled. As a firearms instructor you also need to be able to run your weapon systems with both hands in order to teach students how to perform the skills. No, I don’t expect the same level of proficiency, but you need to be able to do it efficiently.
Agreed. I didn’t really put my thoughts in print well enough in my earlier posts. I think we are actually pretty much on the same page.
So true. I have a cousin who doesn’t know squat but thinks he’s the prodigal shooting star of an LAV, Chris Costa, and Jesus Christ threeway.
I shoot 2 handed left and right, and 1 handled left and right.
Im just saying its not something Id feel comfortable doing unless I had to, and shooting around a left corner for me isn’t one of them. I wouldnt automatically go up to a left corner, and switch to my weak side. If I had to do it because of a wound I know what it feels like, and what to do.
All Im saying is I would only use it unless I could not use my strong side. You’d also be hard pressed to find actual cover where it could be used as bullets still go through car doors, office walls, etc. Shooting weak side to the left might offer concealment but rarely will it enhance cover.
I believe you should train and be highly proficient from either side, pistol or rifle.
Having said that with an adjusted rifle hold more inline to the center (especially with a red dot) and an upper body only lean, your exposure is very minimal on a well executed roll out to the support / opposite side. The biggest training issue for someone new or not as practiced on a support side roll out tends to be the actual hold itself and the height over bore issue and clearing the barricade with the muzzle and not just the sights.
Of course much is situational and things adapt quickly, however if I find myself in a hasty move and shoot situation, I will more often than not use a roll out movement as described above. If I am setting up and taking time, holding a position or have more movements in mind that a transition to the support side is more beneficial than so be it. The main thing is being comfortable and highly proficient with any technique which provides more flexibility.
With a long gun you pretty much need two hands to shoot it effectively. At least I do. I do train with my support hand only with my pistol because I can shoot it one handed. I can see shooting a rifle one handed at very close range but you would have to have some good upper body strength to do it.
Thanks all for the well thought out replies. I will be doing some more left handed rifle shooting.
Pat
i think if all your support-side training is done under the blanket mindset of training for maximum use of cover, you’ll be a lot more likely to actually use that skill in a fight. support side shooting from support-side edge cover is more closely related to things like crowding cover, seeking cover for reloads, scanning, and such, than it is to shooting, in my opinion.
Its all technique. Yes I am a little slower, but I can effectively manage shooting a long gun one handed. Its all about knowing how to do it.
PJ
I mean, if your strong-side is disabled, you can rest the rifle on a wall, car hood, whatever you’ve got, maybe even your knee is a weird sitting/kneeling position. If you’re out in the open with nothing to rest the gun on, yeah, you’re probably not going to be able to put effective fire on a target unless your shoot painfully slow. But I imagine the priority at that point would be to either seek cover (and then try to rest the gun on something) or, if there’s no cover nearby, go prone and use the mag or some supine position to support the rifle.
Or, if you’re VMI-MO, you can just straight up shoot one-handed support-side. (I’ll have to try that at the range next time.)