Suggestions for my 10.5 SBR build???

AR/M4 Custom Build Forum
1

So I’m going to build my dream AR before any potential
legislation prevents me from doing so. This is to be a “CQB purpose” style build for tactical carbine classes, general fun, and addition to my home defense arsenal I’m looking to build this with top shelf parts and have no budget on this gun (barring wasteful point of diminishing returns).
I would appreciate any suggestions for functional improvement of its intended purpose, or “must have” additions to the build.
This is all I have thus far so there are some more parts I would appreciate suggestions on…

Noveske 10.5 CQB barrel
Noveske KX3 Flash Suppressor
Vltor/Noveske VIS with 10" rail
Lowers???Noveske???
Magpul CTR Carbine Stock
Rail Covers??? (tango down or magpul) Fit issues???
Grip??? I have smaller hands so I’m not sure here???
MS2 mulit mission Sling & ASAP attachment point or tactical link single point???
Magpul enhanced trigger guard
Surefire M900A vertical foregrip
Folding back up sights??? either troy flips or wait on the magpul polymer buis???
Trigger?
Mounts?
Internal Work/Parts???

I realize this build will take some time given the wait on parts but I will post some pics here once its completed. Thanks!

2

I would suggest that you chase down the picture threads of the forum’s “heavy hitters”, because typically in some of the first posts they’ll give a run-down of the components they chose. I trust their judgement, because they are the ones throwing serious amounts of lead downrange, and if it works, that’s what they’ll choose. Read posts by the moderators, especially the threads that they start. You’ll run the greatest race of your life by doing the footwork yourself.

Ziptie

3

The wait on the parts will be tough.
If you are going to go short, get your receiver and quickly get your Form1 started so that you can jump on a barrel if/when it becomes available.

4

I’m working on the form 1 now. Any idea on the noveske 10.5 wait times?

5

Opinion? Ok, here is mine. You are setting yourself up to build an unnecessarily expensive and heavy pig of a gun that will take a lot of the benefits of something ‘short, light, and handy’ out of it.

Noveske barrel - something to find out - chamber specs. I have a Noveske SPR - it is not nearly as friendly to all manner of ammo as a RR with a Wylde and no where as accomodating as a Colt.

Noveske KX3 - what is the point? It adds length and weight. If it is about reliability - get a 12.5 barrel since that is about the same size as you will have anyway with a 10.5 and the ‘pig’.

Surefire M900 - another pig - there are better and lighter weight options

VLTOR VIS - why use this? Ability to change a barrel? Accuracy enhancement (on a CQB 10.5)? Do you really need an entire front end covered in rails? It is heavier than other options.

I have a 6933 with 2 pieces of short rail attached to the plastic M4 HGs for lights, it is a light weight compared to my F1 LMT 10.5 with a DD Lite and a Surefire M951. I wouldn’t want an SBR that was any heavier than that LMT.

IMHO

Good luck

6

Thanks MZB,
You make some good points. I will reconsider some of these things. The KX3 appealed to me because short carbines are kind of obnoxious in close proximity and its ability to throw sound and flash down range instead of off the obstacles and people next to me, on a course, or indoor range, sounds beneficial? And it would give me the reliability of a longer barrel. I assume you feel the KX3 is kind of worthless since there’s no point on using it on anything longer than a 10.5-12.5?
For the barrel I had heard Noveske’s were bomb proof, reliable, and accurate? And I thought the long rails would be a good idea because I’m tall (6’2) with long arms, and I’ve found because of my long frame, Its easier to move the grips/optics, etc. farther down on the rails.

7

Sometimes moving optics down the rail doesn’t make them easier to use. The ACOG has a 1.6 inch eye relief. Move it off the charging handle and you’re not getting the best use out of it. I’m not suggesting that’s 100 percent true for everything out there, but it’s something to consider. I’d give a big push for Noveske, I can’t say a disparaging thing about them, except for the fact that they aare in such demand that they are hen’s teeth with a price tag.

Ziptie

8

Gotta agree with Mo_Zam_Beek, get a Colt LE6933 or a LMT 10.5 and be done with it. You’ve got a factory gun that is going to be reliable, proven, and has a warranty. Yes, you’ll probably pay a bit more than DIY, especially today, but then you also don’t have to wait for, nor pay a premium for the various parts needed. Also, after you get it and wring it’s neck a few times, you’ll figure out what you want to add to the mix.
And you could always add a suppressor if you want to quiet the short barrel down.

9

First I am not saying I am correct it is your weapon and you are building it for your purposes. However I am telling you how I see the role of, and have set up my SBRs. I do not see an SBR as a viable general purpose weapon. I see it as a specialty rig. So for me when I ask myself what is that specialty role as a civilian? I see (and use) it in the following manner:

  • Bedside HD gun
  • Travel weapon for urban areas
  • Occasional side match / 3 gun if the distances are short

What I want

  • Reliable
  • Light weight
  • Redundant capabilities for my HD gun – 2x white lights, 2x mags on the gun, fixed BUIS with a Trit Big Dot, Aimpoint; my LMT is the same except it doesn’t 2x lights.

Anything that doesn’t serve those purposes is fluff or added weight. The ability to keep the weapon shouldered, run with one hand, open doors (you can open a door that swings in to you with an SBR shouldered no problem BTW), use the phone, grab and hold on to or carry a child, whatever… light weight is a good thing.

I don’t care about accuracy. A 6 MOA gun is dandy as long as it runs like a raped ape (not that either of these are 6 MOA guns).

As far as the flaming pig is concerned I guess I am just one that doesn’t get it. A 10.5 that is properly set up will run just great without it – look at a MK18. On the other hand if that is the concern – why not just get an 11.5 or 12.5? If it is noise – you’re splitting hairs. An SBR is loud. So what? Wear ear pro, use a suppressor. At a certain point, loud is just loud and it doesn’t make a real difference. The last thing I can about is if another shooter / competitor thinks my SBR is too loud. Flash? Have you shot much in the dark? Powder makes the biggest difference. Some loadings are lower flash – find them. There are also better flash hiders out there. The best? A suppressor. So to me, the flaming pig is just that – a pig for no reason.

As far as barrels – I am not saying one of Noveske’s wonder SS barrels isn’t good, I am saying based on my experience with one of his SPRs the chamber is cut tighter than anything else I have and thus it will not feed and fire some ammo – something to be aware of it you are forced to use whatever is on hand.

Things on my setups – on my bedside Colt I have a Pentagon LED and an Insight M3 on two short pieces of rail attached to the plastic HGs. It is light weight, redundant and I have put about 3k rounds down range with that set up so I know it works. Do I consider it ‘durable’? No. But for a gun that literally goes from the safe to the bed and back and then out to the range every so often just to make sure it is in good working order it is perfect. The LMT setup is much heavier duty and is what I use to travel b/c being bumped around isn’t going to dislodge that SF on the DD rails. That set up is much heavier and not my favorite but it is appropriate for what it is. Neither one of them is appropriate as a general purpose carbine.

I personally would eschew the super high speed stuff including anything other than a MIL spec trigger. I’d just get a light weight rig made of the best parts you could, an extra 10 mags and 200 rounds of the absolute best ammo you could for use in an SBR (read Doc GKRs posts on that).

That is all I am saying. Again, I am not saying I am right either.

Good luck

10

without knowing how much experience you have, how your other guns are configured; but knowing that you want to build a “dream gun” and that you’re not worried about the budget, i can only comment on functional issues.

if you’re good with the surefire 900a, then fine. it’s a good light, but there are other alternatives that work extremely well too (VFG + weapon light)

either lengthen the barrel, or shorten the rail. 10" rail and 10.5 barrel is too close IMO. what do you do if you want to add a can to your dream gun?

as long as you run a good BCG and LPK, the rest is just personal taste.

11

I think this is very good advice, I would suggest save the money on the Noveske stuff and big surefire light and buy more ammo.

I have two very good friends, one has all the latest and greatest, FS2000, sig 556, piston ar, eotechs, aimpoints, acogs, mk23. You name it.
My other friend has an arsenal ak74 and a g19.

Guess who is more proficient?

My own personal experience; I got the base rifle for my “dream gun” and for the most part all those extras took the back seat to more mags and more ammo.

Do I still want the 1-4 optic and back up RDS? Sure. But can I operate the rifle I have a lot more effectively after the 3k rounds I used up instead? Absolutely.

Chris

12

Old post I am digging up here, but I just wanted to say WOW! Well said Sir.

13

yea. his concise response was well received by myself and forced me to rethink my build. I am now moving in a direction much more in line with my intended use of the weapon. Though I’ve owned an bone stock AR for years I’m still a newb in the “tactical” AR world so I’m learning here every day.

14

Cant think of a better option than an LMT 10.5 wearing a DD MK18 rail.

15

very nice, how bout a custom Noveske light 11.5 barrel with a KAC URXII? :slight_smile:

16

I just E-mailed Noeske about the wait times on the 10.5. They have them with the switchblock but not with the standard GB. The E-mail I received back said that they should be available in a few weeks.

17

I’ll post my $0.02 since I just went through this process myself:

Noveske 10.5 CQB barrel - The stainless is good, but the 10.5" Light barrel is better for this application. Hammer forged, chrome lined, significantly lighter, more durable, and will still shoot better than you need for a gun like this. Oh, and it’s cheaper. You can guess which barrel is on my shorty…

Noveske KX3 Flash Suppressor - Not necessary for me personally. A 10.5" is going to be obnoxiously loud no matter how you cut it, so if you’re going to add length to the weapon, you might as well do it with barrel - at least then you’ll get better ballistics. I am personally counting the minutes until Noveske releases a 12.5" Light barrel. Plus, the flash suppression is very mediocre with the KX3 - my preference is the AAC Blackout, but the BE Meyers/Surefire is a close second.

Vltor/Noveske VIS with 10" rail - The VIS is probably the best looking upper on the market, but I don’t see much benefit beyond that in a 10.5" gun. I personally used a standard forged upper with a Daniel Defense Mk18 rail. The Mk18 is approximately 9.5", which leaves just enough barrel sticking out to mount my AAC M4-2000 suppressor. You could save a few ounces and some cash by going with the 9.0 Lite Rail, 9.0 Omega Rail, or LaRue rail, but I wanted the Mk18 for cool factor…sue me.

Lowers???Noveske??? - Noveske has the coolest logo of any lower manufacturer, is reasonably priced, and John is a stickler for quality like no one I’ve ever met. Even if you have to pay a slight premium, I’d do it - $20-$50 is money well spent on an NFA item simply to NOT have a deer head, snake, or gaudy text graphic on the side of my weapon.

Magpul CTR Carbine Stock - That was my choice, but I think a Magpul MOE or LMT SOPMOD would also be decent choices.

Rail Covers??? (tango down or magpul) Fit issues??? - My preference is Magpul XTM followed by KAC, but it’s up to you.

Grip??? I have smaller hands so I’m not sure here??? - Small hands means Magpul MIAD or Tango Down Battlegrip. The Magpul MOE may work, but it’s specifically designed for average hands, not small.

MS2 mulit mission Sling & ASAP attachment point or tactical link single point??? - Never used the Tactical Link sling so I can’t comment.

Magpul enhanced trigger guard - get the MOE Trigger Guard…much cheaper without losing any functionality.

Surefire M900A vertical foregrip - if I could change one thing about your build it would be this. The M900A is heavy, expensive, heavy, big, heavy, and relatively dim for its size. Did I mention that it’s obnoxiously big and heavy? Buy a LaRue FUG and Surefire X300 or Scout Light and be done with it.

Folding back up sights??? either troy flips or wait on the magpul polymer buis??? - All preference. I would also consider the Daniel Defense fixed front and rear, or the KAC flip up 600m rear.

Trigger? - If you don’t want a single stage milspec (Colt), buy a Geissele and don’t look back.

Mounts? - LaRue.

Internal Work/Parts??? - Colt if you can find them, otherwise talk to one of the reputable forum sponsors like Grant @ G&R Tactical, Paul @ Bravo Company, etc. and ask what they suggest.

Optic - Aimpoint Micro in a LaRue mount. I wouldn’t personally even consider another optic, even if it cost twice as much as it does. IMO, this is the easiest equipment decision of your entire build. It’s a no brainer.

The last thing I’ll add about my personal upper is the Noveske Switchblock. I had a custom cut-out made in the rail to allow access to the Switchblock, but still mount a front sight ahead of it. It’s amazing and would recommend it to anyone building a rifle with a carbine gas system to be used with a suppressor. I can’t stand short (carbine) rails, and this is the only way I could have the best of both worlds - worth every penny!

Just my $0.02. Take it with a grain of salt. If I didn’t have this exact upper built I would have gone with an off the shelf Colt or LMT.

18

Sage advise Nick. I think you just outlined a heck of an SBR build in that post.

I just keep coming back to the MK18 MOD 0’ish build when I think SBR.

To me it is the epitome of a KISS carbine built for a CQB mission. 10.5" or 10.3" chrome lined gov’t profile 1/7 barrel, fixed FSB with a fixed rear BUIS, an Aimpoint in a light weight non-QD mount, a Surefire, and a very rugged non-FF rail. This is going to be the template for my next build, about the only things I am going to change from a Mk18 are:

I am probably going to use an M16A1 pistol grip as per the original. It’s lightweight, virtually indestructible and cheap. I will use a Magpul MOE trigger guard mainly so the gap doesn’t tear my finger apart, or I may just use my MIAD with the small insert and trigger guard, though I don’t much care for the A2 finger bump.

I will be using an Aimpoint T1 in a Daniel Defense non-QD mount. Why? It’s the lightest weight micro red dot that will is IMO durable enough for this type of build. I like the LaRue mount my T1 is in now, but the DD is lighter, and I just don’t see a need to QD my RDS. I think the T1 and DD mount is the natural evolution of the M2 in a Wilcox mount. Honestly if I did not already own the T1 I would probably just get the M2/wilcox setup.

I will keep the KAC non-FF rail system, but I’m going to use a RAS with the SAS lower, and not a RIS. The RAS has a much better anti-rotation mechanism and is a more advanced version of the same concept. Also after having one on my issued M4 in the Army I just love this rail for purely emotional reasons. I will keep the KAC VFG as well because it’s small, light weight, and works very well with my hand, also the KAC rail panels just plain work and I like them.

For a flashlight as much as I like the Surefire Millennium series (especially with a Malkoff drop-in) it is way too heavy and there are much better choices on the market for this type of build. I will be using either my M600C Scout, or an X300 both have LaRue QD mounts.

The only two things I have not yet decided on are the sling (and sling attachment) and the rear BUIS. The Dieter CQD sling and mounts work well, but I think the Magpul MS2 is the natural evolution of that system and works that much better.

Likewise as much as I love having an A2 style sight tower next to my face (I religiously shoot nose to charging handle) I think the LMT rear BUIS is outdated. The Daniel Defense looks like a winner here, but I may just get an LMT and replace the thumb screw with something lower profile and Loctite it down with medium strength Loctite.

I think Crane was onto something with this setup. I know a lot of people don’t care much for a 7" rail and longer rails with flip-up BUIS is the vogue thing right now (as shown by the Mk18 Mod1) but I just like having a fixed FSB on something like this, and honestly with a short barrel I feel I don’t need to push my hand out that far to control it. I think if you use the 4 rib KAC panel with the KAC VFG behind it and an ISO style grip you can control a 10.5" very well. Also having a long rail is going to add a lot of weight and reduce the “flick-ability” of the weapon.

19

decoded- Is that a cut down carry handle fabbed into a rear sight?

20

That is an official Navy picture from the Mk. 18 user’s manual. The sight pictured is made by LMT and you’re right it is basically a chopped down carrying handle.

The rumor is (and I have yet to find actual documentation to support this) that when NWSC Crane got the request from end users (read SEALs) to create a CQB specific weapon they used Colt M4A1s and chopped the barrels down to 10.3", opened the gas ports slightly, and chopped the carrying handles to create a fixed rear sight to use with the ECOS-N (Aimpoint Comp-M2 in a Wilcox Mount). LMT picked up the design when they began supplying contract 10.5" uppers to the DoD for the CQBR/Mk. 18 weapons.

ETA: I hate to link to TOS, but this is kind of the bible of declassified Mk. 18 knowledge:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=271832&page=1