There has been some discussion on “stopping power” of late so I think it’s time that we get a few things straight. First off, “stopping3598065314_7ccc33d168_b power” or “knockdown power” doesn’t exist. Velocity exists. Foot pounds exist. Momentum exists. Even tissue disruption can be quantified but there is no magical force called “stopping.”
The term “stopping power” is, at best, an awkward attempt to quantify the ability of a given cartridge or load to incapacitate an attacker. It may surprise you to know that Cracky McCrackerson, your friendly neighborhood crack head/rapist/burglar actually has no idea that your grandpappy’s 1911 is supposed to take a man’s arm off when it whizzes past. He doesn’t know that the stopping powertoothless suspender guy who seems nailed to that creaky stool at the gun store told you so. He doesn’t know that every gun rag ever written proclaims how singularly badass the .45 ACP is and how you have to buy a $3,000 1911 because ‘Merkah! You have to convince his body to stop trying to harm you. This is called “incapacitation.” What causes incapacitation, though?
And so it continues, a gun writer with no ideas can always pull a story out of “stopping power”. He ought to write for a golf mag so he can tell me for the millionth time how to stop my slice, “cures for the ol’ banana ball”. What crap!:suicide:
You didn’t actually read it, did you?
Good article, it went farther in depth than than the typical “stopping power” articles. I’m not as informed on terminal ballistics as some here, hopefully they will way in. Did agree with some of that was said about the “psychological stop” that some cals can have, provided attacker are not drugged out of their mind.
Good article though its nothing new to those who have followed Gary Roberts for any length of time. It does take a lot of information that’s out there and put it together in a concise form.
It’s well written and a good reminder for the countless gunshop commandos who routinely spout nonsense.
My favorite explanation to date comes from Kyle Defoor. It’s all about “timers and switches.” Hit a switch (CNS) and the threat stops. Hit a timer (anything else) and the clock is running. You can poke more holes to speed up the clock.
True, but getting this truth to the masses it’s what makes it great. It’s ignorance reduction on a large scale.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk
I’m a fan of stopping power and banana clips. I embrace the bullshit! Trying to defeat the stupidity is only going to lead to frustration.
“stopping power” or “knockdown power” doesn’t exist. Velocity exists. Foot pounds exist. Momentum exists. Even tissue disruption can be quantified but there is no magical force called “stopping.”
I would also add that penetration exists and that it must be adequate.
I would agree that the above is true concerning service handgun calibers that have been considered managable by average shooters. I find it instructive that since the pre Civil War introduction of the revolver, that .36 and .44/.45 calibers were the most popular service calibers and I have yet to find widespread documented complaints about the effectiveness of these bore sizes even in loads that most would consider inadequate today. Back then, effectiveness was measured by bullet penetration in pine boards. After studying the results of the current testing, I have come to the conclusion that the 100+ yr old tests may have been a valid yardstick.
The problem with the authors conclusions is that it is based on assumptions of physiology, and how much a gel block moves. 10mm OISs are rare, but there are a few here and there. One shooting that I recall from my time in central Texas was a Comal CO deputy who shot a perp 6 times in the torso with the old 170gr Norma load in 1993. The perp still ran to cover, and returned fire with a shotgun(he bled out later). Texas DPS didn’t have a whole lot of “special” luck with their .357sig either, and have instead switch over to the M&P 9mm. Heck, Ayoob recently discussed a shooting he investigated where a perp took 7 torso hits with .45acp 185gr+P Golden Saber at close range. The perp, turned and ran about 20yrds before the hit to his heart initiated his incapacitation. Then you have other alarming OISs such as Officer Peter Soulis’ shooting where he placed 16 hits near COM of his perp with .40S&W 165gr RTs and the perp still managed to run back to his vehicle and put it in reverse. At best, a higher kinetic energy cartridge like the .357sig or 10mm “might” have an occasional instance of a one shot stop, but in the last 20 years the OIS documentation doesn’t demonstrate it to any measure of dependability. S&M, Michael Courtney,…etc have all tried with extreme dedication and heavy exaggeration to try to show some sort of effects exist in handgun incapacitation other than permanent cavity to no avail. As long as people still shoot jugs of water, clay, gel, and fruit…there is always going to be the temptation to make such assumptions.
In almost every circumstance, it takes more than one hit with a service caliber to get the ball rolling so to speak, and get the process of incapacitation underway(unless you get a lucky CNS hit) on a determined attacker. Shot placement of course is king…better shot placement generally makes the incapacitation process faster. Without a doubt, with every shooter I have ever trained(including myself), it is far easier to get several shots in the right shot placement under time constraints with the 9mm than the larger calibers. In fact, the scores are significantly different in most cases, even with guys that use the larger caliber as their duty weapon. Time does matter, as your window for getting optimal hits is often fleeting in a dynamic fight.
The search for the elusive force that produces ‘Stopping Power’ has been going on for over 100 years. After examining the data from tests using all of the modern instruments available, that elusive force continues to hide from us.
It is my opinion that a reasonably sized hunk of lead, producing 150 - 300 ft lbs that can reliably produce full penetration while breaking some bones along the way, seems to work most of the time on the human species. No one else has to accept that conclusion but it brings inner peace to me.
I originally didn’t admit to being the author of the article because I think that sometimes people hold back their criticism a bit if they know the person they are speaking about might read their post. Thank you for the honest assessment. I didn’t intend to imply that a person SHOULD choose 10mm or .357 mag over the common service calibers. I was just musing about a personal speculation. I agree that 9mm is probably the best choice for most departments and individuals for personal protection. My own EDC is a G23 because I bought a G27, G23, and G22 years ago when I believed that .40 S&W hit harder than 9mm. I was pretty well invested in ammo, mags, and pistols before I began to learn better. While there are differences in the permanent cavity produced by the service calibers, the differences are not tremendous. Now, though, .40 S&W serves my needs well enough and there are some minor terminal advantages, especially in barrier performance. It doesn’t hurt that I can use the same projectiles and dies and some of the same powders as 10mm. I see 10mm and .357 mag as extremely versatile cartridges that can be very useful for defense against humans as well as large animals or for hunting.
The .40 and 10mm certainly make a larger hole than 9mm, and the reduced ogive will aid in damage in the first 1-2" of penetration. So technically they are more effective than 9mm. The .40 does make for a nice compromise between large holes and magazine capacity, but I have found two problems with it that bug me as a shooter. I’ve never had a .40 pistol last half as long as a 9mm equivalent. Rail wear on our .40 Sigs and tolerances opening up from the increased parts wear degrade our Sig’s accuracy over time, and we have seen increased parts breakage. Combine that with reduced shooter accuracy during multiple shot, dynamic targets and it’s hard to justify the caliber’s use for many. When it comes to reloading, the .40 can be finicky with powder selection in heavier bullet weights(especially JHP) since the increased pressures warp the bullet to the point of causing keyholing(been there done that). By comparison the 9mm and .45acp are a breeze to reload for in many different bullet weights/lengths, with a wide variety of powders, while still achieving high levels of accuracy. The .40 makes a lot of sense on paper, but in shooting performance and long term service it has its drawbacks.
I wouldn’t recommend it for new shooters but I’m sort of stuck with it in a way. I certainly could divest myself of the .40 S&W ammo, mags and guns and then buy 9mm equivalents but the used price for .40 S&W Glocks is extremely low from all the police trade ins. I may do it someday but it’s pretty low priority to me.
When I used .40, I made it work. In a P229 recoil is very comfortable in 180gr, and was easier to manage than our .45acp Sigs. Maintenance was more intense, and cleaning more often with lots of grease on the rubbing parts. The .40 Sigs are more durable than the .45 Sigs, but the .45s are more accurate. Currenty I prefer 9mm Sigs for duty use, but there is a rumor that my agency wants to authorize only .40 & .45 in the near future, so the .40 would be my second choice.
LOL…
I carry a Glock so I don’t have to worry about parts wearing out before it explodes.