Sad but true. I know of an agency that traded guns because the Chief didn’t want to be “the last place in the state still carrying 9mms”.
Yes, seriously.
Well, as we all know, most cops are not gun people as susceptible as everyone else to outdated info and or general misinformation. How about the LEO who argue the 9mm is not effective but carry a .380 off duty!
Will,
i used to get that all the time from the old timers would piss a bitch about the .38’s but carry small .22’s or .25acp and felt that they were carrying enough gun on thier own time.
Scary no? You can lead a horse to water and all that.
i guess they felt they won’t run into bad people on thier own time.
I know some LEO who don’t CCW at all off duty, and they are not from small podunk PDs either. I don’t “get” that one, but their choice as they don’t work at a PD that requires them to be armed off duty as policy.
From the medical point of view there are only two hits can can stop something immediately, the basal ganglia and brain stem. Hemorrhage can take a while to lead to shock and adrenaline can keep someone surviving for enough time to run off, fire off rounds or stab people before they collapse.
A rifle or slug will be more effective than a handgun but shot placement is still important. Look at hunting game like deer. Some can run off for dozens of yards before they drop even with a hit through both sides of the lungs. A hit to the spine will drop him where he stands.
You are more likely to run into people that you have arrested in the small town settings than in the big cities. Been there, done that, on both accounts. I carry a subcompact 90% of the time that I go out, then again, I also try to at least shoot at least a little bit each week to keep my skills as sharp as feezible. Many of our people only shoot during official trainings or qualifications.
That being said, I do not think that entirely shunning the use of larger, heavier calibers for LE use is wise. As Dr. Roberts has pointing out, if he ever returned to uniformed patrol he’d prefer the M&P .40 due to years of generally better terminal and barrier penetration effects. Officer Keith Borders demonstrated the value of using the heavier caliber when he pelted his attacker by bouncing .45acp Gold Dots off the pavement to hit the perp under a car. The 2008 FLETC vehicular shooting study showed that as you increase caliber size and weight, the pavement deflection terminal effects were considerably better. Further advantages are better destruction of internal bone structure, demonstrated by Dr. Lane and Ted Holland in the 1993 FBI wound ballistics study. Obviously, increasing caliber size is simply a “force increment”…not a force multiplier. The only force multiplier with service pistols is precision shooting to directly destroy key anatomical structures. I’ll still be a bitter clinger to my larger caliber force increments, and ensure that I am better shot than the other guy. 
Quote from some FDF manual instructions for using 9mm secondary,
“engage target and keep engaging until targets behavior indicates that the desired effect has been achieved”.
Quite bluntly put, but does show some realism regarding 9mm FMJ effectiveness.
That shows realism reference the effectiveness of anything you can fire by hand.
A heard a WWII vet, tanker type, one each, say they were taught to fire and “keep firing until the target caught fire or changed shapes”. That is very good advice for gunfighting too.
Who the heck is Ted Holland?
I suspect he means “Ted Hollabaugh”…
Will, a lot of that comes down to the dreaded “liability”.
If you say that cops are “always armed, always on duty”, then do you pay them for 24 hours a day? When can a guy ever get a beer if he has to be strapped 24/7? And if he is going to have a few beers, and is armed because you made him be, then he gets into a shooting…
See what I’m sayin?
All of these reasons are why when I drink it’s at home with friends and not out at bars where stupid shit happens.
I have also noted that unlike in the past where some agencies had a rep for being gunfighters, no one does that now. The agency culture is driven from the top, and the top doesn’t want cops that are gunfighters, ain’t PC at all.
So is hydrostatic shock a myth? I keep hearing from doctors from both sides with differing opinions. Both seem to agree it is inconsistent though, so don’t plan on it. But does an abdomen hit actually cause physical remote wounding to the brain and can physically (not psychologically) shut someone down for a time?
Indeed!
Had the privilege of attending the 3-day Indiana SWAT Officers Association Conference on May 5-7. One of the presenters had an extensive debrief that included a barricade gunfight in a Midwestern city in February of this year.
The subject was shot a total of 71 (not a typo–seventy one) times, with the last two shots being .45s to the head by an officer who flanked Potts and shot him twice in the head at very close range. The very first shot was a .223 from behind that penetrated the scapula and destroyed the left lung. “Vaporized” is the word the presenter used to describe the wound, and the photo of the exit wound seems to support the description. The next three or four shots were from an MP5 through the right scapula and lung. The offender was, then, shot another 64 or 65 times–mostly .223 and .40 cal.–without being incapacitated. He was reloading his weapon when the officer finished the fight with the last two to the head.
The photo of the clothes the offender was wearing looked like they had been run over, repeatedly, with a golf green aerifier!
Pitsburgh PD is not letting this die (no pun intended). They are evaluating the 45 auto caliber! Poor shot placement with a 45 auto is no different than poor shot placement with a 40 or a 9mm.
Was there any mention of the time frame involved from the first shot until the last two head shots? Would be interesting to know.
Very good post. I remember the first black bear I shot at 7 yards away with a good shot to the chest cavity. It was standing up on its rear legs and was not that big perhaps 180 pounds or so. The 2 3/4 mag Breneke slug hit it andit got down on all 4 legs and started running. I shot it twice more on the run and it slowed down and then truned around snapping at its chest where it was hit I put 3 more slugs in it before it hit the dirt and then one more in the back of the head to be sure. Its is amazing the damage am animal or person can take and keep funcitoning. This was a 12 gauge with slugs against an animal about the same size as the average man. It puts trusting handguns into perspective.
Pat
Is there a public link to that story? Would make an excellent example for those who say dumb sh&% like “two .40 center mass will put anyone down 'cause I saw it on Miami CSI” to read.
I recall one goblin took something like 12-14 .40 center mass and torso and still kept fighting, and it was not until someone showed up with a long gun did the fight end.
When .38 and 9mm were the primary police calibers, those types of incidents were highlighted in the firearms press.
Now, in the .40 and .45 era, the same types of incidents are downplayed.
Oh well…