Status of NEW Comparison Chart of Commercial M4-pattern carbines

AR/M4 AR Technical Discussion
1

I wanted to start a new thread for this to keep people up to date on the progress.

I currently have 6 manufacturers polled. I have one other manufacturer that is gathering their data to respond and should have their response posted by the end of next week. I have two requests out with no response. I will look for alternate contacts to try and get these two on board.

My intention is to only have requests out to as many as 4 manufacturers at once, just to make things easier for me to track. I’m archiving all emails after initial contact, and keeping a log of the correspondence for all manufacturers.

110307 Update:
I have two more that returned my emails now.

That makes the total so far:
6 respondents
3 pending
2 no-replies

I’ll have to seek out better contacts at Bushmaster and DSA, although with the upheaval I’m not sure what to expect from the former.

110308 Update:
8 respondents
1 pending
2 no-replies

110316 Update:
8 respondents
2 pending
2 no-replies

110326 Update:
9 Respondents
2 Pending
2 no-replies

110501 Update:
Completed responses from:
[ul]
[li]Accurate Armory[/li][li]Bravo Company MFG, Inc.[/li][li]CMMG Inc.[/li][li]Colt[/li][li]Daniel Defense, Inc.[/li][li]LMT[/li][li]Noveske Rifleworks LLC[/li][li]SIONICS[/li][li]Spike’s Tactical[/li][/ul]
Awaiting responses from:
[ul]
[li]Armalite (initial contact 2/24)[/li][li]Smith & Wesson (initial contact 3/11)[/li][/ul]
Initial Contact made (and no response from):
[ul]
[li]DSA (2/24)[/li][li]Bushmaster (4/25, followup 5/1)[/li][li]Stag (5/1)[/li][li]DPMS (5/1)[/li][li]Olympic (5/1)[/li][/ul]
Attempted Contact:
[ul]
[li]Rock River Arms (5/1 “email us” removed from site due to NRA show)[/li][/ul]

110502 Update:
Got response from Stag. Seemed amenable to answering questionnaire.

110509 Update:
[ul]
[li]Stag Arms - conversation still on-going[/li][li]Olympic Arms - "Sorry, but at this time, Olympic Arms officially declines to participate in your “chart”. "[/li]Official and complete Olympic Arms reply
“For more details Olympic Arms welcomes all inquiries made directly to the manufacturer at 800-228-3471”.
[/ul]

110512 Update:
Completed responses updated to include Stag
Completed responses from:
[ul]
[li]Accurate Armory[/li][li]Bravo Company MFG, Inc.[/li][li]CMMG Inc.[/li][li]Colt[/li][li]Daniel Defense, Inc.[/li][li]LMT[/li][li]Noveske Rifleworks LLC[/li][li]SIONICS[/li][li]Spike’s Tactical[/li][li]Stag Arms[/li][/ul]

2

thanks Rob,
just wondering but are you asking for documented proof of their statements? And as far as accountability, are you posting the specific source or have any credential requirements? I know I have been given false information from CS reps, often out of ignorance (most notable Sig CS telling me their red dots have a “bulb” with a life span much shorter than the battery…)

3

I look forward to it :slight_smile:

4

I’m looking forward to it, too.

Really, it’s one of the most useful tools I’ve ever seen on the internet.

I wish someone had cooked up such a thing for some of the other firearms I ended up wasting a ton of money on.

5

:thank_you2:

6

So now the internet gun forums will have another 5 years of material to hate on…

:jester:

7

Looking forward to it…hopefully no one will steal this one

8

I look forward to it, but I’ll still be buying BCM, Colt or Noveske and what not. Hopefully we’ll see overall improvements in the lower end coming up to the higher end.
I am truly thankful for the knowledge in the original

9

I am glad to know that an updated chart is in the works. Kudos to you Rob for all the work you have put into the original chart, and this forum. For me, the original chart was an awakening as I guess you just don’t know what you don’t know. I had been using my Bushmaster on duty for years without trouble. When my new agency started issuing select fire Colt M4’s I was happy to have one, but other than the select fire option I didn’t know that I had a far superior carbine. I went through Bill Jeans carbine instructor school and started to see the light.

When I learned of this forum, I set out on a mission to make my personal Bushy as good as it could be. Now, the only thing still Bushy on that gun is the lower receiver as I replaced everything else over time. I now really appreciate my issue Colt, and have total faith in my BCM middy which went on my Bushy lower. As they say, “learning has occurred.”

10

I just have a quick question; I apologize if this has been answered in the past.

How do you ensure that the information being giving to you is accurate? Things like feed ramps, staking, etc. is pretty obvious just by looking at them. But couldn’t a manufacturer just lie, and say they individually test each barrel when it isn’t something they do on a consistent basis?

11

That’s a great question - BM’s batch-testing barrels but marking them all MP comes to mind.

12

I’m waiting on it like a kid on Christmas morning…

13

Thanks for all your hard work on this chart.
i would like to see Spikes on the chart also if you can

14

Too cool. Thank you for the hard work, Rob.

15

Thank you, Rob. I am looking forward to reading it, and the associated notes.

16

Awesome Rob, I can’t wait to see the new stuff. I don’t think it will really change much, but it will be interesting and great to read. Thank you for all the hours you’ve put it into your chart.

17

I edited out the name of the company because that is not the point here. FWIW, the company you did ask about is already on the new Chart.

But here’s the thing…

I don’t understand these types of posts AT ALL. I never understood them before, and I still don’t understand them now. Why do people lobby for this brand or that brand to be on the Chart? I only see three possible reasons.

The requester already owns one and wants to validate their purchase. This is not the purpose of the Chart, and is in fact counter to everything the Chart is supposed to be about. It’s also juvenile, and pathetic.
The requester has an axe to grind with the requested manufacturer, and thinks that including them will expose their poor stats. Again, counter to everything the Chart is supposed to be about, and even more juvenile and pathetic.
The requester is considering making a purchase from said manufacturer and wants the scoop. While understandable, why doesn’t the requester simply examine a sample for the obvious, and ask questions of the manufacturer about the less obvious?

This is always a very real concern. I think that one thing the interweb drama that we’ve observed over the last few months shows that people are not unwilling to press the issues when they think someone is lying. Essentially this is how the old Chart worked, but in reverse, on perhaps concurrently. Last time around the process began by polling the user group and asking for photos, documentation, experiences, etc. The information from those like Grant and Robb who see a large quantity of guns on the retail side, and trainers like Pat Rogers who sees a large quantity of guns on the training side, were invaluable.

What we have this time around is an opportunity for the manufacturers to tell their side of the story first. I absolutely expect them to be honest, but I also absolutely expect the community to virtually lynch anyone they suspect of lying. The reverse of this process worked reasonably well last time around and I have no reason to think it won’t work this way, this time.

Trust, but verify.

18

Damn, I miss that old man.

Good job Rob, looking forward to seeing the revamped chart.

Thanks for your hard work.

19

Sorry Rob.
I was not trying to stir a hornests nest.
I love this site. and appreciate your hard work.

20

It’s no problem, I’m just trying (again) to understand those kinds of requests. They happen more often than many may think, and I’m not sure if I’m misunderstanding them or what. I just latched on to your post as an opportunity to try and see if anyone could give me some insight into this.