I’ve always kept my ar as close to stock as possible. For my needs, I do add a rail, light, optic, buis, sling, sometimes a sopmod stock (don’t need it), and a magpul afg2 until I research and find a better option for a stop to ensure relatively consistent support hand position (for switching light).
I am a pretty good carbine shooter but I noticed a habit formed over the years that I never even thought about. When I shoulder the rifle, my strong hand grip pulls into my shoulder hard but my hand isn’t entirely closed. The meaty bottom right part of my palm doesn’t even make contact with the grip. I always ride thumb high for safety manipulation and that seems to exacerbate the issue.
My hands are generally large but x-large gloves fit me better because my fingers are long. I don’t know if this is something that requires correction with a different grip or if it’s not a big deal.
I guess my question is more about fundamentals. Does anyone else experience this?
When shooting a carbine two-handed, standard “fighting stance”, I use the weak hand to pull the gun into the pocket and the strong hand is pretty much along for the ride and left to operate the controls and not much else. Obviously when performing magazine changes, shooting one-handed, or performing lateral transitions the strong hand takes a more active load-bearing role, but when just shooting that’s how I do it. I’ve alternately been told I’m doing it wrong and that this is the correct way, so take it for what it’s worth.
If you’re not seeing adverse results from over-gripping I wouldn’t worry about it. If it’s stupid but it works then it isn’t stupid.
Thanks for your input. I always keep enough rearward pressure with my strong hand to hold the rifle up without the support hand. This is especially important to me for retention if I have to use my support hand to manipulate a person or object. I’ve never heard of shooting with only rearward pressure from the support hand but I’m not involved in the competition shooting world much. Good to hear a different perspective. And you’re right, if it works for me, that should be good enough. My concern is whether an aftermarket grip may better allow me to get more hand on grip and if that is inportant as far as fundamentals are concerned. Thank you.
While I used to run a match, I’ve never had competition-focused carbine training, so I don’t think it’s just a competition approach. I can’t remember which instructors agreed with my technique and which ones didn’t, but none of them were competition shooters.
It’s really the same thing many people do with a pistol, which is use their weak hand to grip the gun and their strong hand to operate the controls. Just because the strong hand isn’t the one applying all the pressure right this second doesn’t mean that it can’t do 100% of the load-carrying duties in a split second when the support hand leaves the gun to grab someone, open a door, perform a reload, change shoulders, shoot one-handed, etc. All of which are things that we’ve had to do in the matches that I run (albeit the person is a dummy or weights).
My strong hand isn’t just flopping around but is wrapped around the grip and applying some amount of squeeze, it’s just not doing the duty of pulling the gun back into the pocket. The instant the weak hand even begins to leave the gun the strong hand tightens up and the strong arm starts pulling back to take up the slack. It’s not rocket surgery.
All of that said, even with the technique I use I prefer a large grip and the Tango Down BG17 is my current favorite. Fills the gap (something that really matters when it’s the only hand doing the work) and fills the hand.
Rob, I think Paul Howe advocates the inverse of how you are applying pressure. Support hand is supporting weight but not applying rearward pressure, master grip is bringing it into the pocket.
I think Bennie Cooley teaches to stretch the gun out like it’s a bow, pushing forward with your support hand to stretch the gun out and stabilize it that way.
I dunno what’s right, or more efficient, etc… I would try all of them on a timer and see what differences you notice in terms of performance and control.
I’m applying most of the rearward pressure with my master grip, and a little but more (but not as much) with the support hand. I’m not nearly as much of a carbine shooter as I am a pistol shooter, so my preferences may still evolve and change as I learn more about shooting carbines.
Whether we’re talking about the carbine or the pistol, it should not be a 100% / 0% thing with one side providing rearward pressure and the other simply operating the controls.
Especially on the pistol, it should not be one hand doing the gripping and the other “just operating the controls.” For a practical lesson to illustrate this, grip the pistol 75/25 and fire a round, but at the same time don’t deliberately control the recoil and take note of the muzzle’s stop point. It’s going to naturally go toward the more unsupported weak side. It makes the recoil far less linear. Some of this gets masked, or you may mitigate this in other ways, but IMO both hands should be providing equal pressure with the pistol for that optimal straight back recoil…call it whatever you want…50/50, 100/100…doesn’t matter.
On the carbine or rifle, too much strong hand rearward pull can do funky things with trigger pull, so I do favor the support hand for that rearward pressure. Tighten your wrist as it would be if you were pulling back with your trigger finger hand and do a simulated trigger pull. Do you notice how your wrist wants to break toward the inside? Now relax the wrist and do it again. You should notice that it’s easier to isolate the trigger finger with less overall movement in the hand and wrist. It’s also important to identify what type of shooting your’e doing. If it’s high volumes of fire at close range, it’s going to be beneficial to apply pressure with both sides. In the precision arena, you need to isolate that trigger finger as much as possible. A good bipod load or solid object load combined with that forward lean will allow you to keep your strong hand grip nice and gentle so you can softly caress the trigger.
Grip (open on closed) on the pistol grip doesn’t matter.
As long as you can manipulate the controls and apply trigger control, you are doing it right.
I shoot lefty with my thumb on the left side of the gun to work the selector.
As far as grip and pressure on the gun is concerned I have used 3 different methods:
1- Firing hand applies rearward pressure sufficient to keep gun on target without the support hand. Support hand pulls directly rearward on the HG for front-end control.
2- Firing hand applies rearward pressure sufficient to keep gun on target without the support hand. Support hand applies no pressure (fore or aft) on the HG, kept loose for rapid target transitions.
3- Firing hand applies rearward pressure sufficient to keep gun on target without the support hand. Support hand pushes forward on the HG (stretching the gun).
I prefer #1. The best shooters I know (GMs) use one of the above techniques. To find what works best for you, you will need to spend a few hundred rounds with each technique monitoring strings of fire and target transitions (tight and wide) for both speed (on a timer, not feeling) and precision/accuracy.
First, I don’t actually think it’s possible to literally have a 100/0, or very difficult at any rate. The pistol thing becomes more complicated IMO so I’m going to leave that out going forward otherwise this discussion is going to get well off topic.
That said, I don’t know that I could break it down into a % of this and a % of that anyway. But for me my weak hand is doing the vast majority of the pulling to the rear while my strong hand is doing vastly less. At this point in my carbine shooting I’m actually much less interested in what anyone else is doing unless I’m actually in their class in which case I will try what they are teaching. Without the direct-supervision/input trying something I read in a book or online only serves to make me go backwards.
Re-reading the OP I see that he’s talking about hand contact with the grip, not pressure, so I probably started this whole discussion down the wrong path anyway. sboza, if that grip gap bothers you I bet the BG17 will fix it.
This is a different topic from my original question but I have to say that I disagree about your equal pressure requirement.
With a modern two hand grip in which the strong hand provides mostly front to back pressure and the support hand provides mostly side to side pressure, you can crush down with the support hand while maintaining a powerful strong hand grip, but not so powerful that you lose too much dexterity in the trigger finger. And yes, for longer distances, I ease up on my grip as recoil control for fast followup shots is not my priority here, accuracy is.
With a carbine, I use enough pressure with my strong hand to be able to keep the weapon shouldered with my support hand off the gun. My support hand pulls in firmly (but not too hard). This gives me exceptional recoil control and stability. And again, grip pressure changes with long ranges. Everyone has their method, I won’t knock rob_s for his technique.
On a different note, I did notice today that the way I grip with the strong hand (bottom right of palm does not make contact on grip), I can pull as hard as I want into my shoulder without sacrificing trigger control. Try it, thumb rides high near selector and use the fingers to pull rear on the grip but don’t close the back of your grip completely. I don’t know if I am describing this well but it does have this side benefit. Does anyone else grip their carbine this way? I will look into a larger grip if this is fundamentally flawed. Have done this for years without even noticing.
Thanks brother, good to hear that you’ve seen what I am talking about. I’ll stick with my grip in that case.
As far as grip/grip pressure goes, I was originally trained in 2 (with an underhand support hand grip) and have switched to 1 (with the elbow out, wrist canted, thumb over support hand grip) in recent years. Never tried 3.
No worries dude, like I said, my post wasn’t written very clearly. The gap doesn’t really bother me, I just consciously noticed that I was doing it (after all these years) and it made me question my fundamentals. I may try a BG17 just for the sake of it but F2S responded that in his opinion, open or closed grip doesn’t matter. And seeing as how I’ve been pretty solid on the carbine, I think my concern was unwarranted. Thanks for the input.
As for the carbine the primary hand pulling to the rear while the support hand acts as a rest is very very old school. Not saying its wrong but many (especially LE) were trained in this method, I know I was. Therefore many long time shooters will exhibit this shooting trait. Even those who start learning more muzzle end control (either recoil or transition control) with a support hand will still maintain a lot of pull to the rear with the primary hand. Sometimes too much IMO. I do think that adapting or trying out new methods is a good thing. However an honest effort at trying something new needs to be done. Far too many people do not give a new technique a fair shake before throwing it in.
I will say that I use all of the methods so far described in this thread situation dependent. The least used is the bow and arrow but that is mostly used when shooting off shoulder etc…but it is less important in the AR/M4 in a 5.56 as control is not as big of an issue as say a 12ga shooting slugs. As I have stated often in the past, I do many different things very spontaneously and do not try to stay rigid on just one method, but rather adapt and flow into perhaps a multitude of varying techniques which translates as my own unique style. It flows or rapidly transitions in split seconds at times as I am working the weapon as the situation dictates. This often times does not sit well with old school training types but I try to let performance do the talking. In general I am not really a huge fan of staunchly endorsing one particular method and being rigid on its mandatory use. Like anyone else I might have my own particular favorite methods for how I do things but no two people are alike. I am often leery of those who preach a dogmatic like mentality of “our way or the highway” for techniques and I am a proponent of fostering a shooters own “unique” style that may blend many things. Of course I will try to properly focus shooters in a direction that I feel is a greater value and this is where a good instructors ability to teach comes into play. So for the OP, if it works well for you, great. Again just be open minded and give new things a fair shake as you might take just small pieces away from various methods and incorporate them into what may define your own unique style.
As for the pistol, since it was commented on even by the OP, I personally do not use a front to rear pressure with the primary hand and a side to side pressure with the support hand. IMO it creates too many issues, accuracy being a big one. With a modern combat or thumbs forward type grip, both of my hands grip in a very similar manner and work in a vise like function as the elbows move inward as the weapon is extended. The two hands nearly impart front to rear and side to side forces equally. I too cannot break them down into percentages, but they are nearly even in the amount of grip force applied and pretty much mimic one another in how it is applied (side to side and front to rear).
Surf - I do try and keep an open mind. It can be a challenge sometimes but one can’t grow if they think they know everything.
As for pistol grip, I did say “mostly” front to rear on the strong hand. I use the same grip for one hand shooting so I maintain some degree of side to side pressure. Too much and fingertips come into play and start to manipulate the gun’s rotation inwards so I avoid that. The support clamps down the side to side for additional control when shooting two handed. My elbows rotate slightly outwards concentrating pressure higher on the grip (more pressure in line with the bore). I have seen lots of top instructors teach this, just wondering why you feel that this grip affects accuracy? Just curious. Thanks for the input.
I agree with this on many different levels.
From fine points of technique to new equipment, many of those that stand rigidly on either side of a topic had their mind made up before they every tried the change (if at all).
Some people are in a constant push to improve, to excel, and will dedicate time and effort into improving. With these types of individuals you will generally see gradual changes in technique and equipment.
Then there are those that are ego driven, that will constantly try to validate a previous choice or opinion, regardless of how much information was available on which to form that opinion. With these individuals you will generally see strict adherence to technique/equipment despite poor/mediocre performance or sweeping drastic change at the drop of a hat.
Don’t be afraid to try new things out. It’s how we get better, it’s how we advance. Don’t be afraid to change previous perceptions, it’s how we find the truth. Make “permanent” changes based on knowledge, experience, and performance.