No doubt that the $700 1911’s will out sell the expensive ones. I intend to stock those cheap Kimbers and Springfields. I also know a lot of folks like sem-custom weapons in the $1,500-$2,500 range. This is the market I intend to open up a bit with higher quality 1911’s for the same money.
I also did watch Steve struggle to move those high quality RRA 1911’s (which I did find surprising). That lesson is not lost on me.
C4
If that’s directed at me, you missed the point of my post. I’m only using my own experience with the ADCO-sped RRA pistols as an example when discussing market, not utility.
I don’t think that omitting the front strap checkering would have cost ADCO one sale and I think that it would (should?) have reduced the overall price of the gun by at least $50. It did, however, cost them at least two sales to me and I’m sure several others.
As I said before, if end-users want them they can add them, but those that don’t want them can’t take them away. Not having checkering also means that end-users can pick the pattern and LPI they want instead of being stuck with what’s already on the gun. Make the gun stainless and they don’t even have to refinish it when they’re done.
It strikes me that you may be mis-using the term “custom”, as is common in the 1911 market.
According to www.dictionary.com
cus·tom
adj.
- Made to order.
- Specializing in the making or selling of made-to-order goods: a custom tailor.
In other words, custom is not automatically high-end and high-end is not automatically custom. It sounds to me like what you are actually proposing is 3 price levels, and resultant finish and accessory levels, of high-end 1911, but not actual custom work. What you are talking about is high-end production just like RRA, Wilson, Nighthawk, Brown, Baer, etc. My Ed Brown Special Forces came one way and one way only.
“Custom” is what Bob Rodgers, Chuck Rogers, Ned Christiansen, Ted Yost, Hilton Yam, etc. do. Some of those 'smiths do offer “packages”, but the user can deviate from that package as they desire for a truly “custom” gun or start completely from scratch with their own wish list. As an example, I ordered a Yost 1* Enhanced but then made some changes particular to my purposes.
If you truly mean made to order custom guns, then all you become is a middle-man and broker for a customer that could in theory go straight to the 'smith and save themselves your fee. If you mean high-end production then you’re going to be competing in a very crowded market.
Thats why this is a bad business decision. The money spent will put much more food on your table spent on other goods.
High end 1911 people, in general are the most anal PITA people to own firearms. If they want something now, or a few month wait, it will be one of the crowded market pistols mentioned above, or bought from whoever has it in stock with most of the features they want.
Its all about the Brand Recognition, and telling everyone I have a “Hilton-Rogers-Roger Yam-Ned” 1911!!!
You wont sell any of the high end 1911 people a pistol built by someone they, or their friends havent heard of.
If I said I had a 1911 reworked by John Miller, there probably isnt a person here who knows that name, or would give it a second thought.
Grant - let it go, its all for the best:(
steve
Is /was stocking dealer for RRA, Ed Brown, Springfield Custom Shop, Wilson Combat, Les Baer, and Gun Crafter.
Custom means two things in my book. The first one is that the item deviates from they stereotypical “norm.” My second thought on the word custom deals in how the 1911 is fitted. Meaning that the gunsmith spends 15 hours on body work alone (blending parts, removing scratches, polishing, etc, etc). Every part is fitted to that weapon (read no out of the box parts slapped together). To be honest, very few “big name” 1911’s smith’s do ANYTHING like this as they just don’t have the time. The are generally doing some trigger work and some checkering and calling it a day. You are simply paying for the name and got almost NO custom fitting/blending/polishing done to the weapon.
You are technically correct in that I will offer a package one way with nothing but the best of everything. We may deviate with the checkering patterns 30LPI VS 25LPI and such, but that will be about it. Either guy doesn’t like it or he does.
C4
1911 guys are for sure some of the most PITA folks to deal with. What I intend to do is first keep the pistol smiths name a relative secret (as he wants it that way) and build one gun for myself. I will then show it to the world and use that feedback to figure out if it is worth my time.
As you and I know, people get stuck paying for a “custom gun” by “super cool guy” and all they actually got was a gun that had some parts slapped together. All the while charging you $3k. No one will ever know the guy I am usings name and they will have to buy the 1911 based fit/finish and accuracy (not name recognition).
C4
Doing things this way (no checkering for instance) is actually what causes the problems. If you get the pistol without checkering and then want it, your right back in the waiting game for the smith to finish up your weapon. I am trying to do away with the 6 month wait for a custom weapon game that we all seem to get stuck with. If the guy doesn’t want the checkering that we offer then it isn’t the 1911 for them.
C4
No question about it. I pity anybody who has to deal with us for a living.
There is certainly a lot of truth to this statement. That being said there is also a reason for it. For most guys buying a high end 1911 is a serious amount of money and also the realization of a dream. Since most of us only know of a limited amount of 1911 familiar gunsmiths it makes perfect sense to spend your money with somebody who has “Weathered the Storm” so to be speak and stood the test of time building reliable guns.
I’m sure their are a great many super 1911 gunsmiths out their who are “Un-Known” to the masses, but how are we suppose to know they aren’t one of the crack pot’s who do nothing more than install parts?
It’s a sad fact that for every “Great” yet to be discovered 1911 gunsmith on the market there are at least three shit heads. How are we suppose to know the difference based off nothing more than some photos on a website?
Certainly true to a certain extent, but word of mouth from people you have grown to trust has a way of changing that.
True, but thats not a name you run accross every day. 99.99% of 1911 owners have no idea who is.
I would kill for a John Miller built gun. I have never met the man, but judging by the reputations of some of his students he must be the man.
You are correct. I would never expect someone to buy a $2,500 based on pics. I will be taking one for the team and building one from the ground up. I will then shoot it, carry it and run it through training classes. I think once the weapons proves its reliability, accuracy and people can see the craftmanship for the dollar amount it will be an easy sell.
C4
If the gun has all good parts, is properly built and will run reliably through thick and thin with acceptable accuracy, a lot of folks probably won’t bother with anything else. I’m of the “two is one, one is none” school for many things. For 3k I’d rather have two Seiko’s than one Rolex.
I guess it kind of depends on what your definition of “good parts” are. My def. is that good parts are NOT MIM (which is what the Kimbers and Springfields are full of).
I also follow the two is one and one is none, but if the two weapons both haves subpar parts in them then you really only have one IMHO.
C4
I think it is an interesting idea and I hope it works out for you. I look forward to seeing how this project progresses. I feel that a semi-production 110% reliable shooter would eat up a larger portion of the market share but if you have a market in mind and plan to build to that market then you may have something. There is no reason for any of us to dissuade your project. We should all wait until your idea is brought to fruitation with a prototype and then judge it on its merits. That is just my opion others may vary.
Dave
I apologize in advance for my bluntness. It’s just the way I am when it comes to firearms. 
If this comes to fruition, I volunteer to purchase the prototype. I will wring it out and provide unadulterated feedback.
If this is the case, what reason is there to believe he will be able to pump out signature grade guns at rock bottom prices on such short notice?
Rob is correct. Thanks for saving me the trouble! 
Layfolk will not have heard of the smiths we consider to be rather high-profile. In my experience, the folks that care most about brand names are those that shop in the $2000 sweet spot. In particular, Les Baer owners feel especially compelled to boast about how tight their guns are.
Custom means built to order, plain and simple. It is in no way an indicator of quality.
You are off the mark here. High-end 1911s pretty much start at $4000 and up. In exchange, customers receive the detailing that consumers of $2000 guns always misguidedly claim to have. “Fit and finish” is thrown around a lot, and is an easy way to spot someone who doesn’t know what to look for. My YoBo 1* is slightly outside of your target price range, yet I make no outlandish comments about the quality of the product. It is what it is, a reliable economy custom gun.
The best of everything? I appreciate the enthusiasm, but there is no standard.
You make it sound as if you are doing us a favor by testing your own product. Allow me to relieve you of that burden. That way, feedback on the pistol can be a bit more impartial. Besides, as a father with a thriving business, I don’t see you shooting or training much anytime soon. 
To me, good parts means forged frame/slide, bar stock/tool steel internals, one piece quality SS barrels etc. I have had outstanding service and reliability (+6k rds) from a Springfield TRP right out of the box. It was about 1100 bucks but it does have some mim parts in it. I’d have gladly paid a few hundred extra for better internals and a few less features/cosmetics.
Not only do I know who he is, but if you’re willing to sell the gun keep me in mind! 
Did I hear someone say they had a John Miller pistol for sale?
Thanks for the input Vinh. The 1911 smith I am dealing with is more eager than I to put this thing together. So I imagine that my guns will be first priority for him.
From looking the pics of his 1911’s and reading his customers feedback on a couple 1911 forums, it is apparent to me that if he had a big “name” that he could get $4k for his 1911’s.
The best of everything simply meant that you won’t find any MIM parts. We will use some of the best parts in the business and then each one hand fitted.
My wife bought me a WC CQB several years ago. Was it a custom gun? Yes. Did I get to pick out the configuration of it? No. This is how my guns will be. They will be custom, but the consumer won’t be able to cherry pick things. Either you will like it or your won’t. Folks that don’t can go wait in line for a 1911 smith to do it like they want (and wait 2 years).
When we finalize what the components are of this 1911 I will post them and if your still interested in the gun it is yours! I do however give good (unbiased) reviews on gear (just ask Dick S).
C4
The TRP is an excellent 1911 and will stock them in my shop. With that said, having it done with no MIM parts would put you in the $1,300-$1,500 range. If you had any trigger work, polishing, blending done you would be in the $2,500 range easily and wait 6 months (or more).
This is where I am going with my pistol (no MIM parts, polished, blended, fitted, high end barrel & sights) right out of the gate with no wait!
C4
Thanks Dave. The “agenda” is to make a pistol that competes with NH and WC (in the $2,200-$2,500 range), but uses better components and more blending/polishing/fitting than those companies offer. I want it be a stand out value and kind of show folks that you don’t have to spend $4K to get a top notch, reliable fighting weapon.
C4
For a true custom built-to-spec gun, 6 months is fast from a one-man shop. Options like checkering will kill that timeline fast. I think you are in the area of semi-custom. Shops like Novak’s, Nighthawk, and EGW have several gunsmiths and can turn out quality work faster.
As a retailer, I would consider the after-sales customer support you would get, too. It could save you a lot of headaches later.