I’ve read where they leave copper fouling to a much larger degree than non-TSX rounds. I have some in my stash (and they were expensive, like > $1 a round) and really don’t feel like using a copper-remover every time I clean my weapons, especially since they are all chrome lined and most copper removers are not good for chromed barrels.
I’ve never noticed it being an issue with their TSX line. Granted, I’ve never fired more than 30 or so rounds at a time. I’ve heard that their older bullets were terrible about copper fouling, and is the source of this idea, but the TSX bullets fixed the issue. NO idea if that information is true, it just makes sense to me. I doubt the sneaky squirrel types in the Army would have adopted the 70gr TSX as their “5.56 Optimized/Brown Tip” load if the fouling is as bad as some people make it out to be.
I’ve noticed a 3-4 moa difference in a clean vs fouled barrel @ 100yds.
That is significant. How many rounds before that degradation of accuracy?
So what effective copper remover can be used on chrome lined barrels on a regular basis? i.e. like every time you clean to stay on top of it.
IMHO- I prefer to go with Hornady GMX bullets…they’re made of gilding material instead of just copper. All the benefits of copper, but no more fouling than standard bullets.
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I would say 20-30 maybe? It’s been a while since I’ve played with them.
Copper fouling from all copper bullets is significantly more than bullets with a gilding jacket…IMO. Whether it’s 2x, 3x…I can’t say. But it affects accuracy sooner than standard bullets…again IMO. And I think Hornady has a great idea with their bullets made from gilding instead of “all copper”.
I use sweets 7.62 to remove copper fouling…but remove it immediately after cleaning. It’s good stuff, but anything with ammonia isn’t good to leave for an extended time.
Sweets and Hoppes is my “go to” cleaners. I always store rifles oiled well, but dry wipe and a couple fouling shots when ready for use.
I rarely clean my hunting rifles during season unless they get wet, but rarely shoot them more than once or twice per season…then clean well before and after season.
On ar’s…I clean them after about 35-40 shots with copper bullets. Accuracy drops off pretty significantly after that…once again, IMHO.
Why would the Barnes solid copper bullets foul any faster than a coper jacketed bullet?
Supposedly the Barnes bullets are 100% copper. A “copper jacketed” bullet has a jacket that is an alloy of 95% copper and 5% Zinc…which is harder than 100% copper and doesn’t “copper foul” the barrel as quickly.
Hornady “copper bullets” are made entirely of gilding material alloy…according to Chuck Hawks.
On the water and gel block tests I did myself, the all copper and gilding material bullets were the only one that didn’t frag hardly at all…beautiful mushroom expansion, that retained 98-99% of their original weight.
Tests I did, for example-Barnes 130 TTSX:
Looks like it did not fully expand, but that’s to be expected with the lower velocity of the 300BLK. What distance was this shot at?
15 feet
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This is my understanding… and probably why the pure copper bullets expand so well… they’re softer.
Good info, I was not aware of the difference in alloy and non. I’ll post a pic of a Barnes 338 280 grain long range that I dug out of the dirt at 1100 yrds. One thing about the long range “tipped” bullets I’m not too jacked up about is about a third of them or more have the plastic tip off kilter. You can roll them on something flat and see it. I called Barnes about them and they told me that it was not that big of a deal, to shoot them and I would probably see no difference. Then he told me if I wanted to just send them the ones that were really bad and they would replace them. I would rather just have them all perfectly straight right out of the box beings they are pushing a dollar a piece. I was not able to use my normal pieces for my runout tool until I got the one that ran off the copper just behind the tip instead of the top itself. Ya, not thrilled but the way these expand and stay together is impressive. These are I know basically a hunting projectile, but you can’t tell me it’s not going to make a difference in POI, especially at 1000+ yards. I haven’t bought any since but have picked up the non tipped in 185’s which was closer to the weight I was looking for anyway.
New research is pointing towards (pun intended) the possibility that the plastic tips are eroding in flight due to air friction. I believe Hornady is working on a new line of tipped bullets, that have a higher temperature durability.
Wouldn’t it be a hoot, if the next round of new research suggests that the “off kilter” plastic tips were actually eroding in flight to become more concentric/straight…and higher thermal resistance tips didn’t erode…thereby staying “off kilter” in flight.
The military spec’ed and is using smokeless powder with additives to help reduce copper fouling from solid copper bullets. CFE223 (Copper Fouling Eraser) is the civilian packaging.
As I understand it, the cooper fouling is increased when using solid copper bullets vs. traditional jacketed bullets…hence the gov’t studies to deal with the issue.
I personally have conducted several hundred tests on various jackets, in relationship to performance upon impact of various targets. When doing the tests on all copper bullets, the barrel copper fouling was noticeably increased. When using the solid Hornady “gilding” material bullets, I saw no increase in copper fouling.
What is your method to “remove it”? Dry patch?
Not sure what Butchman205 does, but for me, anytime I use an ammonia based copper solvent I run dry patches until they come out, well, dry.
For gas guns, I have a line on my cleaning rod so that I can pause for a moment at the gas port, in case some solvent remains there. Probably not needed, just peace of mind.
I use Sweets and Hoppe’s synthetic, and plain old Rem oil.
I normally go for the carbon fouling first with Hoppe’s synthetic, and follow up with sweets (if need be) until no more blue patches come out. I try to always blow out the gas system from the action end into the barrel, but if I’m cleaning a piston gun…I drop out the piston prior to cleaning with the nasty stuff.
After carbon and copper is removed, I dry patch until it doesn’t even leave a moist spot on the patches.
Then a light coat of Rem oil, and dry patch once, and call it done.
I like to plink, hunt, or carry for self defense…a firearm that’s had one fouling shot.
And if I’m sighting in for long range, it takes me three days to do a three shot group…I always want my first shot to be as absolutely exactly zeroed as I can get it. For me…only way to find that, is shoot a stone cold barrel several days in a row.
KG-12 best copper remover I’ve ever used way way better than sweets. The barns do fowl more than the GMX in my experience I suggest running lighter bullets then you would with lead when using the copper ones and pushing them fast for reliable expansion.