So, how'd this happen?

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

I remember reading last year in a Magazine entitled Guns & Ammo Book of the AR-15 they torture tested a Stag M4gery over a few days. They exclusively used wolf ammo and did not clean it, shooting 5000 rounds. If i remember there were only two or three malfunctions, which the author attributed to the mag, IF I remember correctly. I was impressed by the article. What more could you ask for in an AR?

I had always heard good things about Stag, and I was set to order a Stag upper and parts for my stripped lower and then I started doing some research. Seems mlike Stag fails the chart and I have to make all kinds of additions to ensure it runs correctly. Much more expensive and labor intensive than I thought it would be, with the heavy buffer, CS spings, black bumper, having the key professionally staked, etc.

So, considering that the Stag arms upper and BCG lacks most of what “the Chart” consideres to be necessary. How did the Stag Arms rifle survive the torture test?

So, should I still stick with my plan for the Stag Arms upper?

2

Do you really think Stag would send a turd for T&E?

MBR

3

You need swicth (NO) to (I am) Bananas.:smiley:

4

Bananas,

A little food for thought. If you were the owner of XYZ Arms, would you send a rifle in for T&E w/o double checking every single thing on it to ensure that the gun would run? Probably not if you wanted to be in business long. Same goes for all the established companies especially with the AR craze running full steam.

I personally have never fired a Stag Arms carbine or rifle so I can’t judge them. But, when I go to purchase a gun I will tear it down and examine it closely. If a dealer won’t let me then I thank him and move out. When I bought my Noveske I did w/o that benefit as I was overseas. I relied heavily on the advice of those who have used them and considred all the info.

5

Please, not so loud… :rolleyes:

I’m no authority, No Bananas, but I may have a parallel to the Stag v. Chart question. In December of '06, Shooting Times reviewed all three versions of the the Smith & Wesson M&P 15 – 5,000-plus rounds through each rifle, 38 different types of ammo, zero malfunctions. I was impressed enough to buy my own S&W M&P 15 several months later.

And then I discovered M4C and The Chart. Uh-oh…:rolleyes:

The Chart didn’t tell me to toss my rifle into the river. It didn’t threaten my manhood and it didn’t insult my intelligence.

Call me crazy, but I looked at The Chart as a chance to actually learn something. I presumed that each spec on The Chart probably was there for a reason. Most important, I was honest enough to admit to myself that I’d bought my M&P 15 without knowing what I didn’t know.

Now, largely as a result of collective knowledge here on M4C – The Chart is just one example – my rifle is more reliable, and I’m a wee bit smarter about how to keep it running.

Respectfully, No Bananas, I suggest that you approach your purchase (and the experience represented in these forums) with that attitude. No matter what upper you end up buying, you might just discover something that you don’t know. :cool:

In the May '08 issue of S.W.A.T., by the way, is an article entitled, “A Tale of Three Smiths (or, ‘23,640 Hard-Use Rounds Downrange’),” written by a well-known professional trainer. Even though two of the guns didn’t survive the flogging without problems, you won’t find my M&P 15 in M4C’s Member Sales Forum – because, in my view, testing-to-failure is more informative than testing-to-validate-my-purchase. :wink:

It’s about attitude.

YMMV (but I seriously doubt it :smiley: ).

6

I can almost guarantee those parts were and selected and that rifle was already chosen for the torture test while it was still in pieces.
How did Rock River get the DEA contract…No F***ing clue- but they sold a ton of them to civ’s based on that alone.

7

A lot of the chart items pertain to long term durability and decreasing the chance of malfunctions and breakage. This was a test of one rifle with a relatively limited round count.

There are decent odds that any one rifle from Oly, RRA, Stag, whoever, would pass that test just fine. I’m not sure Mr. Bananas quite understands what sort of performance we’re expecting from our rifles. There is indeed a “lot more” you can ask for in a rifle in many cases. If the Stag offers what you want, get it.

8

I’ve never seen a gun magazine, other than SWAT, give nothing but shinning reviews on any gun. Here recently that has included Bushmaster, DPMS, Armalite and many other AR makers. Sort of like politicians telling the truth, it doesn’t happen very often. What bothers me is they may be doing a disservice to their readers. Then again they probably receive hand picked cherries. Do some research, it will pay off.:slight_smile:

9

NEVER EVER be impressed by a magazine article. NEVER trust them, and NEVER purchase a weapon based on what an article says. Sure, there are some authors who are truthful and honest, and there are SOME reviews that might actually have went the way the article states, but this is still not reason to ever purchase a weapon based on what you’ve read.

10

A fundamental principle of the publishing business is that editorial and advertising are completely separate, with neither influencing the other.

That may be true for a very few publications but, by and large, it’s a myth.

“Biting the hand” and all that.

11

Oh, I don’t know. I bought my BHP40 because some writer (Dwayne somebody, I think) said it was the best CCW pistol ever designed. Then the next month I bought a USP40 because some writer (Dwayne somebody, I think) said it was the best CCW pistol ever designed.
:confused:

12

…because Stag builds a decent rifle and the chart isn’t gospel.

13

ding ding we have a winner folks:D good answer

14

All excellent points and responses. Thanks, folks :smiley: .

Since this is my first AR, I’m kind of testing the waters to see if I like em. I won’t be shooting matches, or driving it as hard as some of the folks here do. I’ll be shooting inside 200 yds and 55 & 62 gr. ammo. To be quite honest I can’t see me ever shooting the heavy 75 gr. + ammo. It’s so darn pricey, and I won’t be shooting that far.

But, who knows. I might like the AR and/or the heavy ammo so much that by this time next year I’ll be putting a few hundred rounds out a weekend through my 1/7" Noveske/LMT/Colt.

Anyway, If I do decide to go with the Stag, it seems that it would be wise to invest in the H Buffer, properly staked gas key, and extractor upgrade.

15

It’s a facts and features list, nothing more and nothing less. I’m glad I had the chance to review it a while ago. Stag, DPMS, Bushy whatever…I used it to salvage a DPMS AP4. I replaced the BCG with a Bravo co. unit, had the chamber checked for 5.56 compliance and did a few other things to make it a reliable shooter.
I guarantee if every manufacturer in the chart sent a “random sample” in for a 5000 round test they would all hold thier collective breaths until the test was over. Id put my money on a $25.00 AK47 picked off some kid in Somalia to beat a 5000 round test that any M4 from anyone.
Like someone else said, Kudos to STAG if it was a rifle pulled at random, but shame on them if they cherry picked a gun and ramped it up before the test.

16

one drop of nanolube was rubbed over the entire rifle with a fingertip.

17

nothing says that a sub-par carbine will not perform. the chart is a list of things that are BETTER to have. a list of things that hopefully stem POTENTIAL issues that can arise.

having those features LESSENS the chance of failure. NOT having those features does not guarantee failure.

18

Agree.

I don’t view The Chart as The Answer, or even as a collection of answers. It’s most useful (to me) as a reason to ask questions.

Ditto everything else I encounter. :wink:

19

The chart is an excellent resource for someone like me, who is learning about ARs. The ability to quickly tell, in one spot, what manufacturer offers which components, and what manufacturer does not, is very useful. Should I buy my first or second AR solely off the chart? Of course not. Does it tell me why a Noveske is more than a DPMS, well, I would hope I already learned that before I got to the chart. But, does it help me differentiate between a Bushmaster and a Stag, or any other two brands, yes. For that purpose, it is excellent.

With regard to testing, I absolutely agree that no sane manufacturer would provide an off the line product without double checking it and making sure it was as good as it could be. That is just good business sense. Now, if the Stag was randomly selected or procured from an independent source, that would add a whole, higher, level of validity to the testing, at least in my mind.

Sloth

20

The factory suggests using 10 drops to fully treat the weapon, less if you don’t treat the trigger group - as two drops will reduce trigger pull poundage by 10-30%.

Many professionals have stopped using Militec in favor of virtually indestructible NanoLube, with nanometer sized synthetic diamond spheres.

Look on ebay under NanoLube.