My uncle frequents Pat Rogers classes and told me EAG will be coming to Utah in June 2012. I have never taken a training class before but have done several 3-gun matches and a couple carbine matches. My unle said I would probably be alright but I might try to find a basic course before June to take.
I want some opinions from you guys to whether the carbine 2 class would be too advanced if I have never had a formal training class. My uncle is the run and gun type that would mop the floor with me, so I don’t know if he has more faith in my skill than he should.
What do you guys think? I want to be able to enjoy the class and learn without being over my head.
I run an LMT rifle with sopmod, battlecomp, and a centurion rail. Simple quality setup. I have heard Pat runs his guns wet. I always enjoy reading the filthy 14 articles.
The class does mention a night shoot. I have done a few night matches so that shouldn’t be a problem. Thanks for the info:cool:
Carbine 2 is a 3 day Carbine Operators Course with the addition of two (2) Low Light Shoots.
It is not a beginner’s course.
[snip]
Pre-requisite:
At a minimum, you must have attended a previous carbine and a previous pistol course, taught by a recognized instructor or an agency/ department course. Not all instructors/ courses are alike. Please contact us if you have questions about this.
I have been at a number of EAG classes. First, if you have any questions, please email Pat Rogers, as he can best answer any questions and provide the best guidance from the horses mouth as to if he feels the course is too much for your skill level or not. He has an excellent article on his website called Coming to Class. Read it, as it will also give lots of insight as to some of the preparation needed to get the most out of your money at a class. With that said, EAG Carbine 2 is a very fast paced course. LOTS of information. If you have the ability to attend a Basic Carbine course of some sort prior to Carbine 2, it will help you to be more familiar with your rifle, which means you can focus more on what goes on in class. Do not attempt to take the class without formal training with operating a carbine of some sort PRIOR to the EAG class. It is too much information for you to take in otherwise.
Pat’s class has a lot of focus on Fighting with a carbine vs shooting. The classes I have been in have been mixed with mostly LE shooters, but some MIL and quite a few Civilian shooters also attend. Of those, there are some that are taking the class for defense purposes, and some have Match experience. One thing that I have seen over time is that Match shooters begin to smooth out and become more and more proficient once they focus on the fighting mentality vs the Match mentality at the course. Keep things simple. Special gadgets intended to increase speed at a match frequently fail with the pressure from conditions that occur during a high round count course. Speed holstering, fixed tunneling mindsets, and failing to seperate the differences between matches and fighting are all learning blocks that you will need to be open to changing during the course. One such example is that you’ve shot during some night matches. That does not mean anything. That’s like saying I’ve held a gun, so I know how to shoot. What you will learn during the night shoots is the best low-light training I have experienced, even though I have had specific low-light training as an LEO. There is LOTS to consider in regards to it.
A common analogy expressed in regards to Pat’s classes is “drinking from a firehose.” There will be so much information coming, that you will be trying to absorb as much of it as possible. The reason I have taken more than one EAG course is because I have needed to in order to help develop the levels of competence I feel is needed for my duties and abilities.
If you have the ability to attend, great! It will be an incredible experience, and if you attend with an open mind geared towards what Pat teaches versus how YOU do it at a match, you will be much more successful. You will be able to take the skills you learn, become much much more proficient with the carbine and shooting. But I will tell you right now that very different than Match Shooting. A couple matches here and there is not training, and should not be considered by you as knowing what you’re doing.
Listen to your Uncle. Forging ahead without doing so shows you aren’t ready to have that open mind needed to properly digest the training.
EDIT: Holy hell, did I misread THAT part! :mad: Damn, my apologies.
You need to fulfill the prerequisites of any firearms training curriculum for the sake of raw safety, and as markm said, so that the other dozen or so people that are ALSO paying what you’re paying to train…aren’t forced to needlessly wait up for somebody else’s lag-time.
There’s plenty of time, before June 2012, to take your prerequisites. I’d hit up your M4C regional training group, in addition to the formal class listings, to see about getting that done.
Thank you all for your comments. I am not one to overrate my experience and do not want to run before walking. I was mentioning my time in shooting matches as more an understanding of basic manipulation and safety rules. I know it is not considered training by any means.
I am going to try to find someone to take a basic class from this spring so I can get a basic carbine class under my belt before heading to the EAG class. I do not have a lot of time or money for training so I want to get the most for my money and enjoy the experience. I appreciate the advise guys.
Very good…you are walking before running that way…
You have lots of time to get in a basic course before the June EAG Course. You can still make it work, so that you get the time with your Uncle. That is an advantage to have someone at the class you know and work with as well. Take the advice of others on here and look up a regional course or training group. I don’t know if Riafdnal is on this board or not, but he’s from UT and does a lot with training, and could possibly be a resource.
A couple of points to consider, going to a formal class isn’t like going to the range on your own or attending a competition.
The prerequisites, although not foolproof, show the instructor (in this case Pat) that the student (you) can follow instructions and be safe while still having a baseline of skills so that the entire class can move forward at reasonable pace.
Most folks who haven’t been to a formal training class usually have an inflated view of their own skill level, this includes mil/LE folks.
While your existing skills and experience may be adequate for the class, you may be new to how classes are run such as range commands and safety protocols which may be different from how your competitions are run.
As Pat has posted before, most folks are not conditioned for 8 hour training days on the range. Add the low light component and you may be up for 12 or 14 hrs before the training day is over. I have seen students at classes start to burn out and not realize it.
The other students who have gone through the prerequisites have an expectation that their fellow students have been vetted and also meet the baseline requirements, it is for their benefit as well as yours.
June is a long way out; I would encourage you to attend at least a 2 day class with a reputable instructor/organization, otherwise if you do find yourself in over your head at the EAG class without it you’ll wish you had.
I’ve been concidering that as well. I’d like to take my first class but can’t see myself getting much from a class full of people learning to sight there rifles, but at the same time moving into an advanced course I don’t know if I would understand the Course of fire(commands and such) as someone who went to the prereq basic course does. And for the cost id rather not find out im not getting much from a class after I paid.
With years of MC infantry training, I don’t want to over estimate my skills but basic skills, safety, and manipulation training are unessesary. I’m kind stuck in the same boat as the op as in I don’t know where to begin.
One thing I will say about a lot of military is that non infantry mos people lack A LOT of basic rifleman skills and many would benifit from basic courses, at least in the Marine Corps.
Not to thread jack but I think a lot of people may have the same concerns.
What Marine Corps infantry is utterly fantastic at, is churning out folks that think that they don’t need to revisit the fundamentals. There’s pride, and then there’s hubris (unjustified and/or overbearing pride), and the Corps excels at producing more of the latter.
After 12 years spent in, and another 5+ spent training Marines from without, and given the op-tempo, I’ve seen the Corps make a systemic practice of mistakenly starting PDT at Square 3, instead of Square 1; there’s both good and bad reasons why that is. A lot of the true basics, as a result, and are either paid lip-service, or just outright lost. Making Expert on a Marine corps KD course for the 3rd time, in reality, means that one is a moderately competent marksman; NOT in the 90th percentile of the shooting population…more like the 55th.
The fact that you don’t think you need it is the first clue that you probably do, especially since the environment would be JUST similar enough to what you’re used to for the differences to be potentially very jarring. Will there be aspects that you will already have a good handle? Absolutely, yes; what you may know isn’t to be casually dismissed. However comma beware sneering too hard at the idea of taking basic classes prior to and in between more strenuous or type-specific ones; we ALL stand to knock the rust off in a structured environment from time to time.
There’s tons of good training entities out there that conduct basic classes that have enough room built into them for a more-than-basic student to stretch themselves. The onus is upon that shooter to find something that will work as re-set training AND push them…and that’s presuming that that shooter is too lazy to figure out ways to push himself. EAG being one, FPF Training, Pat Goodale’s PFT, any of the companies that fall under the Grey Group Training coordination umberella…the middle of the bell-curve of the shooting population is gonna get tested by any and all of those.
I’ve taken Pat’s Utah classes both this and last year, and I can reflect on student body. There were people who haven’t taken a prior formal class and have done just fine with Carbine 2 class of his. This could an exception to the rule, but it has happened. Same applies to his pistol class.
As long as one’s priority is to learn and be safe, not to impress others, one’s usually fine.
Do this:
hit Pat up with an email and check with him. It is a a courtesy thing, and it sets you up on a right track with him. Say you’ll try to get a class under your belt, but if no opportunity came your way, then what…
make sure you’re fit enough. You don’t need to be in an Ironman form, but those are three long days, five if you do both pistol;
there are periodic carbine shoots held at WSA in Fruit Heights, check regional subforum. Not a true substitute for a class, but reasonable way to to sort out your gear and get some instruction. None of us are pros, but some of us have had enough training experience to be able to share.
This is exactly the kind of answer I was hoping for. I agree there are a lot of 03’s that think there fucking Rambo. They’re the same guys flagging the line every year at the KD range, But there are many(if not most) who push themselves to be effective combat shooters.
Reading posts above from more experienced people I think my best bet is to contact the ones offering the classes and discuss with them,
Ill probably start with a beginner class just to become familiar with how they’re run.
My main concern was that I don’t want to be lined up with someone pointing out “this is called a magazine, this is called a charging handle” i just don’t know how basic they break it down ya know what I mean?
“we ALL stand to knock the rust off in a structured environment from time to time.”
I like that perspective on getting back to the fundamentals.
I’m sure I’ve developed habits that can more than stand to be improved upon.
I am an Arty officer in the Marine Corps and am not claiming to be a grunt. But I spent a year and a half attached to a Grunt company and deployed to AStan with them along side Failure2Stop. And one thing I’ll say is unless your grunt company had someone like Jack Leuba(Failure2Stop) training them In advanced techniques then they’re heavily lacking in the basics. I got to learn the correct application and relearn a bunch of things the regular Marine Corps likes to teach improperly. I’m not just saying this as a friend of his but as an outside MOS looking directly inside of what goes on. I’m not saying this is the case for every unit but the 03xx designator shouldn’t be used as the only qualification for an advanced course.
Good point. If he was offering Carbine 1, I would do it without hesitation, but he is only offering the advanced class.
I might have been looking at it the wrong way where I was looking at the investment and trying to justify a way in rather than figuring a way to focus some more funds towards a beginners class first. I am a full time employee and a full time college student on top of being a new daddy. Time is my enemy right now, but hopefully with a 7 month window, I can find a starter course in advance.
I will definitely write Pat and see what he thinks. I had no idea that was an option.
