After searching and reading several schools of thought i still feel alittle confused. In the fighting carbine thread I read you can zero at 100 or 50. My question was if zeroing to 100 would you place the rear sight to the 100m mark or just pull it all the back?
I was also wondering if the rear sight was pulled all the back and zeroed at 25y was the correct way? I was told this would allow use of the rear sight as intented.
I also read on another site that said to place rear sight at 100 and zero @ 25y. It was explained that doing this put you closer to 200y when rear sight is set to 200 or closer to 300 when set at 300.
go to the free target pack here, one of the targets is an AK specific target that tells you the windage and elevation adjustments. Ive seen some trajectory charts of 7.62x39 and 25 yards looked the flattest. Yes put the rear sight at 100 yards.
The 7.62x39mm AK round does have quite a lot of “arc”. The farther out you set your zero you lessen the amount of hold-overs to account for the arc’s “upswing” but the bullet drop past your zero will be much more extreme.
A 25-yd zero will give you “torso sized” hits out to 300yd’s. This is where the term “minute-of-man” comes from. Meaning Point of aim=point of impact @25yds. Hits from there to 100yds will creep up above the clavicles into the neck. From 100-200yds the arc starts to creep back down but above the 25yd POI. The bullet continues its arc and 300 yds will get you a shot right around the navel. The bullet continues to drop with 400-yd’s being at the knees and 500 being just below the feet.
To achieve this “Battle Zero” Set the rear sight to 100 and zero your rifle @ 25 yds. When done move your rear sight back to the “P” (all the way back)
I have a build at Rifle Dynamics right now. Part of their process is zeroing the rifle before sending it back. I asked Jim what zero they recommend/use. His answer was the 25 yd Battle Zero.
If you sight in like this do you just leave the rear sight alone after zeroing or do you still adjust per range? And at anypoint is your point of aim really your point of impact?
Yes, when using the BZO you simply leave the rear sight @ the “P” (or “O” or “U” or whatever it says). Then you have the holdovers mentioned before. I assume that this is why it’s called a Battle Zero. It’s intended for gunfighting ranges.
Your second question is a good one. To be honest I can’t remember. I can tell you this though, I ran a 7.62x39 AK in the inaugural Ronin Strategies AK class using this zero. Throughout the courses of fire, mostly close to intermediate range, I never missed steel nor did I have any problems doing a balance of speed and accuracy drill at different ranges. I didn’t use any holdovers in the class (but I think the longest we shot was 100yds).
IMHO I would still use the 25 yard zero. The TWS is a cool system but it doesn’t change anything about the 7.62x39 and its path of travel. I think the best way to describe it would be “lobbing” rounds. Though it probably does make it easier to see. :blink:
The 25 yard zero gets you the most hits on the torso without holdovers.
A benefit of the TWS is that one would likely be better able to see their target in the zeroing process better. One of the problems with the 25 yard zero is that if one’s group isn’t SUPER tight its easy to fool yourself into thinking your zeroed only to have problems at longer distance. The TWS would appear to make the zeroing process more accurate and consistent.
I’d like to note that I am no expert, these are things that I’ve learned in the last year or two. I had to spend a lot of time searching the web and asking experts in person to figure this stuff out. I’m just trying to help answer the same questions that I once had.
I shot my 7.62x39 AK at the local rifle match for about 3 years.
The problem with 7.62x39 is there really isn’t a ‘best’ battlesight zero, the ballistic arc is too high. This ain’t 556 NATO where you can zero at 50 and gets your hits out to 250 w/o holdover or hold under.
What I did is zero at 200 yards. That puts you ~5-6" high at 100, which is pretty easy to compensate for. For 300 yard shots and further out, set your sights to ‘3’ or the nearest setting.
The latter, I did find this which is the same as you suggested but it seems make me think if shooting at 200y you would slide rear sight 200. http://www.ak-47.net/ak-47/sightingin.php
I guess it is just weird to me, placing rear sight at 100 and zeroing @25. But it seems to be the general consensus.
I guess if you want a better point of aim point of impact it would be advised to stick with 556 or 5.45x39.
Two lessons were reinforced at my first match shooting it: 1) 556 NATO is a very flat shooting cartridge. 2) 556 NATO has no recoil when compared to 7.62x39.
The ak.net page is correct, however, I’m not sure where they are getting a bullet drop of 16" @1,000 yds. I can’t think of ANY round that will do that. The BZO will get you to about 300, then you just need to remember your holdovers.
556 and 5.45 have holdovers too. They are a flatter shooting round though and those holdovers don’t come into play until your farther ranges.
7.62x39 is not without its idiosyncrasies. One thing that I have found interesting is the 300BLK phenomenon. “People” said they needed a lighter, faster round so 556 and 5.45 came along…40 years later 300BLK makes a splash because “people” say that a .30 Caliber performance is necessary. 300Blk is 7.62x35mm. Pretty dang similiar to 7.62x39mm :cray:
It is weird and you shouldn’t do it that way. If you you do, you will completely ruin the utility of the sight.
To do it right you may:
Set the rear sight to 1 and zero at 100 meters.
Set the rear sight to 2 and zero at 200 meters.
Set the rear sight to 3 and zero at 300 meters.
Which ever works for you.
This way you can use the ladder on your rear sight to compensate for different distances (it does work well too) or switch to battle sight (first setting before the numbers) for minute-of-man hits up to 300 meters.
I have only two settings for my own AK, namely 150 and 300 meters. I prefer to zero in with the latter to minimise errors in zeroing the rifle. Any error you make at zeroing in at 25 meters is four-fold at 100m and eight-fold at 200m. 25m zero will be only a rough “in the ballpark” type of thing, IMHO not a real zero. For most purposes 100m zero is enough, but I like to play it safe with the 300 meter one.
But do not ruin the utility of your sight by using incompatible zero.
A different approach from mine, but not an incorrect one. If the zero is done with the rear sight corresponding to the distance then the ladder can be use as intended. I guess my only retort to the ladder method would be that if one had the time to rangefind and adjust then that time may be better spent running away! j/k :help:
I suppose I failed to mention that I run red dots on my rifles. No way to adjust those on the fly so I use the 25 BZO with the Aimpoint and use my holdovers. My irons are setup the same way for the sake of constancy.
The BZO is more of an ideology in my mind. The only way to get POA/POI all the time would be to use the ladder. Even then there will be play once inside of 100 (height over bore and the upward arc of the bullet).
There is a saying about martial arts belt systems: “Every time you get punched in the face you go down a rank” This is, of course, aimed at the “if I was in this situation I would do this” crowd. Seems like the winners in real life are typically the ones who throw jabs and straights the hardest and fastest. This is the justification for the BZO in my mind.
There are several ways to skin a cat. Run that rifle in a class and see what you think.
That is why you use battlesight by default for engagements and use ladder only when you have the need to shoot further or actually know the distance to the target.
There are several ways to skin a cat. Run that rifle in a class and see what you think.
Sure there are. Some of them are better and some of them are worse. Regarding running classes, yes I do run them for other people wanting to get better with AK’s. I personally prefer 150m zero (which is also FDF standard and our guns have that setting) because it allows for point-blank-range of roughly 180 meters for head sized target with an 7.62x39 rifle: that is you will hit a head up to 180 meters by aiming at the middle. Russian system is somewhat different, but one can use the battlesight for torso sized targets and switch to 100m or 200m zeros for smaller targets in closer range.
Sight is a useful tool that one needs to know how to use. If you know the properties of the point blank ranges these settings provide hitting stuff becomes a whole lot easier.
Far from impossible! If you want to zero in an AK properly on a know distance yard range you just need to know where the POI should be at 91, 183 and 274 meters with a given setting. Quick check on the ballistic calculator says:
at 100 yards one should be 0.2 inches over POA with ladder set to 1
at 200 yards one should be 1.6 inches over POA with ladder set to 2
at 300 yards one should be 5.1 inches over POA with ladder set to 3
