Elsewhere I ventured to opine that I believe a shotgun is a better HD choice than an AR and was met with criticism from AR lovers.
I’ve done a lot of reading, research and study on this topic, but am I truly all wet? Is the AR a superior HD weapon?
Here I have in mind a scenario of a weapon used inside a house, not picking off incoming Zombies from a hundred yards out as they move in for the kill.
Thoughts??
In my not nearly humble enough opinion, both are excellent choices depending on your preferences and level of comfort. I have both, and rotate which one is kept next to my bed ready to go from time to time. From an instantaneous incapacitation standpoint, I definitely prefer the shotgun. 00 Buckshot. Massad Ayoob has some vids out on using a .20 ga. with #4 Buckshot for persons who can tolerate less recoil but still want as close to optimum impact. The other great thing about shotguns is their versatility of loading. Concerned about over penetration? No problem, you can adjust your choice of shells accordingly. Concerned about small round size from an AR? No problem, you can use a 438 grain tactical slug, or various buckshot loads. 00B basically gets you 8-9 9mm pellets on target with one pull of the trigger. #1 buckshot still gets you plenty of penetration, many more pellets, and still large enough pellet sizes to create good wound channels. In recent years, #1 buck seems to have become a very popular choice for HD purposes. I personally still use 00 buck, but wouldn’t have any concerns at all with someone going with #1.
Having said all of that, I also have no problem with use of an AR for HD (obviously). Doing so certainly has its advantages from a recoil standpoint, as well as an ammunition capacity standpoint, accuracy, etc.
If you were to set yourself up with a solid HD shotgun, I would be shocked if anyone here would lament your choice.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/
While not 100% conclusive because they obviously didnt test a TON of ammo, it to me shows that both are about equal in terms of penetration through drywall, especially with the common 00 buck and XM193 that a ton of people have. I would be interested to see what the Federal 00 with Flite Control wad would do as well as something like a 62g-64g SP(like a Gold Dot or Federal Fusion) and 75g TAP or 77g Federal(SMK). I think XM193 is generally considered a poor round for HD anyway. Even though the #8 only penetrated the 1 wall, I think its been shown to have very poor terminal ballistics through denim.
I wonder what kinds of velocity and energy each projectile had as it was penetrating each wall. Or for that matter, minimum amount of energy/speed required to penetrate drywall.
I have both shotgun and rifle setups for HD. I can choose whichever one seems most appropriate at the time, for the situation at hand.
The shotgun is my default social long gun, due to perceptions about “assault rifles”. I will gladly pick up a rifle if needed for a situation, perceptions be damned.
An 18" shotgun is longer than a 16" carbine
A shotgun holds less ammo
A shotgun is harder to load
Both penetrate drywall, but a shotgun puts 9 projectiles out rather than 1 each time fired
The carbine has a wider range of capabilities
If you’re good with a shotgun, go for it. I’m much more comfortable with a carbine.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=80131&sid=7508fddca951fd839ace27e709d6985c
Some info that might help in your decision making process.
Solid info, thanks. I would rather put 7 or more 9mm holes in a bad guy all at once than hope I get lucky with a 5.56 at close range, which may just icepick him and nothing else. I carry 14 rounds in and/or on the shotgun, figure that should do the trick
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No worries. I can’t fault your reasoning either. If I am clearing a house room to room, that is one thing. If I am holed up in a bedroom, its another. For the first case I would likely choose a carbine, but for the second, a shotgun is a good option, though a carbine can certainly do the job there as well.
The Shotgun or AR argument to me is akin to the Revolver vs Auto pistol argument. The Shotgun being the revolver, in that is some ways it is much simpler and has been around longer and is thus more accepted than that new fangled kids toy, and in some minds is pretty close to idiot proof(though considering I’ve seen people manage to **** up a single action revolver nothing is truly idiot proof). However, while it may be more simple in some respects, it is more complex in others, ergo for a pump, putting multiple rounds on target requires one to work the pump opposed to just pulling the trigger again, and again, and again until the threat is no longer a threat, as well as the reload and ability to aim it depending on the shotgun and where it patterns. Thus my comparison to a revolver. The AR can be more complex in other ways, method of operation, cleaning, and perhaps not quite a robust in digesting all manner of loads compared to a pump that will handle low power to heavy loads, it is simpler in others, putting rounds on target, the reload, ect. So what is comes down is what you have more training/are more comfortable with in my mind. Both have put plenty of people in the ground, just need proper shot placement, and a proper load helps as well. Regardless which you choose though, you must train to be effective, I don’t give a shit who you are. Train and make sure the platform is in proper working order. Here is where the AR comes out ahead in my mind, since I see a lot more people willing to run drills with and train with an AR over a 12 gauge pump, partly because of ammo costs and partly because they bitch about the recoil from the shotgun.
So to sum it up, partly personal preference and what you are more comfortable. This is of course everything being equal in that you are using quality loads in each and both platforms are reliable, properly set up, ect. Changes in this, from quality of platform to training to what you are willing to do, can skew my opinion to one or the other.
Well, it also depends on the type of shotgun. A pump is very reliable, but not especially ideal when the adrenalin is overwhelming. So, maybe a semi auto shotgun, but then you have the problem of maneuverability in a home anyway. Shotguns tend to be longer and harder to get around doors and halls with. Then you still have the capacity issue. Sure you may have 7 in your shotgun, but I’ve got 30 in my AR before a reload. Also you need to be almost as accurate with a shotgun as an AR. Many think that a shot gun spreads way more than it does. There is no doubt that a shotgun with a buckshot load is more effective at stopping the threat with a single shot, but a round of M193 is not going to ‘ice pick’ someone and leave them to carry on as before. A high velocity round like the m193 will make a huge cavity as it passes through. So, even if it doesn’t tumble, the pain and potential injury will likely be nearly incapacitating. Then there are always follow up shots.
I was taught to believe that a shotgun is superior to a carbine for HD, but I now believe that that is incorrect for most people. Most people will spend more time shooting their ARs than their shotguns, so the average shotgun HD shooter is less likely to be familiar enough with their shotgun to use it effectively under stress.
My HD weapons are pistol and AR. In fact, I’m thinking of trimming my HD shotgun collection.
BTW - If you have a shotgun and an AR. Make sure they are empty, then pretend moving around your house looking for an intruder. Or try getting into a defensive shooting position in your bedroom with a shotgun vs. an AR.
Thanks for taking the time to offer a very helpful and thoughtful reply.
I have taken now twice a tactical shotgun class and have really learned a lot about how to use it as a fighting tool, as opposed to shooting clay.
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What’s your time on both to achieve 100% hits inside a 3" circle, with nothing outside (0% escapement), in the dark, at 5 yards?
What’s the same with a moving target?
At the end of the day, what you use is far less important than how well you employ it. I’ll beat a motherf**ker to death with my bare hands if I have to, but that wouldn’t be my first choice.
Holding it at the ready? Darn fast at five yards. I will time myself next time to be more precise.
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I’m pretty sure many bad guys have been taken down by a 5.56 at close range, so I don’t buy that argument. I used to be in the Shotgun is the Best for HD camp, but after actually trying to clear and maneuver in the shoot house at our local range it is my third pick behind Carbine/SBR #1, and a handgun as #2. As many have mentioned, even with a cylinder choke the pattern does not open up enough to account for less accuracy at close range, and I am more accurate and faster at putting rounds on target with my carbine or handgun. Also try holding a cell phone and racking a shotgun, it just doesn’t work.
#1 buck using the Flite Control wad probably produces a much more effective wound profile than a .556.
That said, a shotgun is probably going to be heavier, have more recoil, take more time to get follow up shots and carry less ammunition.
Everything is a trade off. Personally, my go-to long gun is a 300 BLK AR w/Barnes black tips, but in most cases the 870 with Flite Control would be fine.
In general, I feel like the AR gives you more capability if the number of assailants is larger.
The thing is tho, most threats are likely to be met with a handgun. If I have the perceived need for a long-gun, I suspect I’d want all the gun I can get.
-john
Really depends on the shooter at the end of the day. Both will get the job done very well with proper ammo selection.
When I was single I had an 870 with 8 rounds of #4 buck at the ready but now that I’m married we have an AR with 75gr TAP as the primary HD long gun as a shotgun just isn’t something my 120lb wife can effectively employ (at least not as well as an AR). I don’t feel I’ve given up anything in terms of lethality FWIW.
This is exactly it - I’ve seen too many instances of people (even here) advising somebody who goes duck hunting and can run a 12ga like none other that ‘an AR is better’, which for that guy it’s not. I suck at running shotguns, therefore I supplement pistols with short ARs.
There are a LOT of form factor effects that can really adjust usability, and that’s a bit part of how I weight ability to run a weapon system; even with my pistol gripped youth stock on my 870 the limitation on running it in tight quarters is mostly me (but the 38"+ OAL doesn’t help a ton).
A center of mass hit with a 12ga on anything without armor is better, but in the time I can personally make a hit with a 12ga platform I’m done with a pair and onto a failure drill with the AR platform I have far more familiarity with.
Ask all the questions of yourself not just the ones about ammo. Which is easier to use at night with a light? Which is easier to use while trying to dial 911 and talk to the dispatcher? Which do I shoot the most and train with the most? Which do I have the most training on? Which to I shoot the best? Which can my family use if I’m not home? Which has easier sights to use? Which is 100% reliable? Which is legal for my area? Which is the best choice for me and my unique circumstances? etc… It varies from person to person so I don’t think there’s a definitive answer for everyone. I own both. I keep a handgun close and a shotgun and AR hidden away but nearby. If I have to leave my house because of a natural disaster or railroad spill, the shotgun will be locked in the safe. My neighbor doesn’t even own an AR but he’s proficient with his shotgun. I think we both made the right choice for each of us.
I think you’re missing the point.
100% accountability.
What is faster, what gets you where you need to be easiest?
I really couldn’t care less what you use.
Either one works well when you have prepared yourself and your guns to accomplish the task at hand. Most shotguns I see on the forums have too much crap on them IMO (but I guess many ARs do as well). I have my 870P system down to 4 round side saddle and Inforce WML on the forend at 9:00. I replaced the furniture with Magpul SGA stock and MOE forend and use a factory 2 round extension. I can attach a QD VCAS if desired (Magpul forward sling mount and SGA QD sling mount for stock) and configure it as single or two point.
I prefer to be proficient with either system and able to deploy both of them effectively. I don’t think it has to be one over the other. If you like the shotgun though, I think you have to work a little harder initially to become proficient. I am looking forward to a Randy Cain Shotgun 1 class this coming December along with 6 friends.
My shotgun is currently the gun next to the bed. When my Mossy 590A1 14" SBS gets out of jail, it will take over for the 870P.