I was worried this would happen. Please don’t confuse what I said as meaning I think only 1 or 2 rounds are nessecary. I am simply pointing out the fact that a very large amount of the time, you’re simply not going to need 60+ rounds in a carbine in a home defense situation. Do I have 60 rounds at my disposable on my HD carbine? You bet your ass I do. I never want to be outgunned. But the fact of the matter is, the chances of you actually having to expend your whole magazine of 5.56, and reload, and expend that magazine on a simple home break-in is a far-reached reality. I’m not saying it can’t happen, but its not very likely to happen.
If you look at defensive shootings you will find many where more than one or two rounds were fired.
I’m not sure that you will expend an entire 30 round mag of an AR, but I’d rather not bet at it.
“how much ammo do you need in a gunfight?” Pat Rogers often asks his class.
The answer is “all of it.”
It’s nice to know you can predict what badguys will and wont do.
You are attempting to script a gunfight. Facts are you dont know what badguy 1 is going to do, much less badguys 2, 3, 4, etc. While its true most badguys will run when a defense is presented, we dont train for most, we train for worst. Some dont train at all.
And yes, bad guys are known to practice fire and mauever techniques. There is a reason street gangs send members to our armed forces.
Where did you get your figures? I men you use 95% so prominently, you’re bound to have a source. What about the other 5%? Did the good guy know that the encounter was going to be worse than the other 95% had it?
All this talk of how much you need reminds me of a saying in aviation.
The three most useless things in aviation: the runway behind you, the sky above you, and the fuel you didn’t put in your tanks.
The same could be said about the rounds you don’t have in your weapon (or the weapon you left in the safe, for our concealed carry people).
I didn’t write a college admission essay. I did not expect it to be hacked apart and analyzed. 
You’ve got to be realistic sometimes. The likelihood of actually being in a HD scenario is already rather unlikely, the chances of being adversaries with multiple, well trained bad guys in your home is even more unlikely. I’m not saying it can’t happen, but is it LIKELY to happen? Generally not.
I’m not “scripting” a HD scenario. I’m
not saying that you only NEED 1 or 2 rounds in a HD scenario. I said you may only USE that many, and that I believed that the shotguns “limited” capacity of 6-8 rounds doesn’t mean it should be dismissed as a viable defensive weapon.
Last time I checked, most home break-ins don’t consist of a sustained firefight. Most every HD story I read about in the paper or media is quick and short, with few shots fired.
Do you remember that viral video a few years ago where FOUR guys ran into a house armed with M4’s that all ran like deer once the home owner opened fire? They were substantially armed, but they fled at the first sign of danger.
Once again I’m NOT saying you don’t need a lot of rounds, I’m saying you probably won’t USE that many.
Shotgun for HD? It depends.
Our primary duty weapons are nicely accessorized 870s, with G21 /TLR-1 as a backup. We train extensively in shooting on the move, unit tactics, building entry & room clearing.
I liked that shotgun setup so much that I put together a duplicate for my personal weapon. If the door crashes in, I’d like to meet them with my shotgun.
The only problem is that my wife can’t handle the shotgun very well & she thinks my AR’s are too complicated, but she loves shooting the AK’s, so there’s a AK 74 with a 30 round mag inserted hanging on the bedroom door & the 870 is in the safe.
Life’s a compromise.
By your logic we shouldnt use anything for home defense because it is unlikely. But we do because there is a chance. As long as we are preparing for that scenario we might as well plan for the 5% percent (according to your figures) that are worst case.
I’m not “scripting” a HD scenario. I’m
not saying that you only NEED 1 or 2 rounds in a HD scenario. I said you may only USE that many, and that I believed that the shotguns “limited” capacity of 6-8 rounds doesn’t mean it should be dismissed as a viable defensive weapon.
I didnt say you did. But while we are on the subject, there is no way to know how many rounds will be needed. You can use previous shooting as a measuring stick, but until it happens, you cant say for certain.
Last time I checked, most home break-ins don’t consist of a sustained firefight. Most every HD story I read about in the paper or media is quick and short, with few shots fired.
When was the last time you checked? How many articles go over the timelines and round count? Is it the sameplace you found the figures in your previous post?
Do you remember that viral video a few years ago where FOUR guys ran into a house armed with M4’s that all ran like deer once the home owner opened fire? They were substantially armed, but they fled at the first sign of danger.
I remember it well. I remember that he fired more than 1 or 2 rounds, and more than 8-9. I remember that they fired during their withdrawal. I also know the website keepandbeararms.com has plenty of instance where bad guys stood their ground in the face of gunfire. In fact many more than the 5% you claim.
Once again I’m NOT saying you don’t need a lot of rounds, I’m saying you probably won’t USE that many.
I get that, but its not anything you can say with any degree of certainty.
Seems to me that pretty much everyone has accepted some cut off point of what should be the level or preparedness/what we bring to the table. Otherwise we would all have helmets and rifle plates, sleep in fortified/reinforced bedrooms, take shifts of watch duty, security perimeter, pair or more of trained attack dogs, etc. Instead we have constant topics of “so there was this noob at the range with a chest rig…”, “why does anyone need rifle plates?”, etc.
That said and even though most of the time you can get away with a J-frame with no reloads we go with more for those lower chance events. Has to be a point though where a person is just naturally satisfied with their odds or life would just be shitty.
If someone is more on a budget, talented with using one, or what ever then a shotgun isn’t a shabby choice although that 1%- chance of needing more rounds is there. I think other issues like time to do a followup shot (not getting into if you train out the ass) would play a more important role with the issues of not having all day to safely blast away until you hit.
I’ve seen some amazing stats before where something like 90% of self defense events don’t even fire a shot to resolve, of those left the average shots fired is 3, etc. There are multiple flaws of course, as an example that 90% thing was derived from a self reporting tele survey. I am guessing though that the 95% thing is from Magpul Dynamics and not some statistic related to chance of actual shots fired in self defense.
Use bird shot in it.
Birdshot is for the birds.
I would never by choice use birdshot if I had an alternative choice.
I couldn’t agree more!!! Shotguns are most certainly for the thinking man. If you can’t run the gun, manage your ammo, and be able to change out ammo in the gun, I would reconsider making it your primary HD tool. Don’t take my word for it (or anyone else’s for that matter) get out there and take a Shotgun course from just about any good school and after six or so hours of running a SG you will think twice about it…
FAIL
Do NOT attempt to use bird shot on a human being intent on killing you and expect it to work.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958
https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91
If you don’t know WTF you are talking about it is far better to simply refrain from posting and just read.
I agree that most times it is a lone intruder, but sometimes it can be more than one.
This discussion reminded me of a story I read awhile back about Lance Thomas. Here is a link to it.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_156_26/ai_82533205/
With the J frame we have the issue of size and concealment–typically in a situation where you have to carry it and are limited by size and dress constraints. For home defense concealment size is not an issue.
I’ve seen some amazing stats before where something like 90% of self defense events don’t even fire a shot to resolve, of those left the average shots fired is 3, etc. There are multiple flaws of course, as an example that 90% thing was derived from a self reporting tele survey. I am guessing though that the 95% thing is from Magpul Dynamics and not some statistic related to chance of actual shots fired in self defense.
Exactly where does this figure come from? I’ve seen lots of accounts of shootings where more than one or two rounds were fired.
Some of the philosophy I am reading here is the same that supports buying an Olympic brand AR because it is ‘good enough.’
Some of the views in this thread are sounding like those from less competant boards, where posters assert that just pumping a shotgun is enough to send any homebreakers running.
I think one point in this debate that has been missing is the large cost difference between a shotgun and carbine. Like it or not most people who want a home defense firearm probably don’t have $800-$1000 for a quality AR. In contrast, you can buy a remington 870 for $325-$350 and one can buy a used remington or possibly a new Mossberg 12ga for around $250. Shotguns are proven to be an effective weapon with devasting stopping power if you use the right ammunition.
I do think a quality M4 is a better HD weapon than a shotgun but for the price, shotguns can’t be beat.
You are correct about the cost differences–plus there are some places where an AR is heavily restricted.
I don’t have a problem with people who want to use a shotgun for home defense, only those that think one or two shots will be enough–like one person who claimed a single shot shotgun was fine for home defense.
One or two shots may be enough, but factor in possible misses, attackers who need to be shot more than once, and multiple attackers and it’s easy to see why you may need more than one or two shots.
Worst of all, expecting one or two shots to be enough is a loosing mindset, since if one or two shots is not enough you can be caught unprepared, frozen.
Any decent instructor stresses followthrough, being ready to fire additional shots if needed, or as Pat MacNamara says, “check your work through your sights.”
Expecting to end a lethal force situation by firing one or two shots is not conductive to your survival.
Selecting a shotgun, that only holds one or two shots to go into a lifethreatening situation when there are better alternatives is moronic.
Ed has said what needs to be said.
Closing this one before it goes off the rails any further.