I’m a total AR noob and have only had my Smith and Wesson m&p 15 optics ready for 2 weeks.
Anyhow, I put a EOtech XPS2-0 on it last week and zeroed the rifle. For the heck of it I decided to do some off hand steel shooting @50 yards and it was a lot harder than I thought it would be to hold the thing still. I could hit the 8" plate with ease but really had to focus to hit the 4" plate. Obviously, I can hit the plate from a bench with ease and was getting .5" groups @50 on paper from the bench.
I am going to attempt some 100 yard shooting for the heck of it. Just for the challenge.
So, what would be acceptable off hand groups at 50, 100 yards and maybe beyond? Is there a standard that people try to get to?
I plan to start trying to build my skills for the fun of it.
i think i’m pretty happy to hold 8-10 MOA at any distance, offhand, standing. so, that’d be approx 2.5" at 25, 5" at 50, 10" at 100 etc. this is taking my time, slow fire.
When I was in the Marine Corps, staying inside a 12" bullseye at 200 yards with open sights was the goal and a fairly reasonable one at that (if you couldn’t do the same in the sitting and kneeling positions, then you probably needed extra instruction). Now that they use ACOGs, they may have made it more difficult.
TheCracker, when I was a total noob I found it helpful to take up the art of “plinking”, that is, shooting at actual objects (like aluminum cans) that react when shot so it gives immediate feedback. That often improves your shooting because you are not just doing the mechanical shooting at stationary targets, measuring your groups, and whatnot. If you can’t hit a soda can sized target at up to 100 yards with your AR, then you need to keep working on it. Then and only then would I start worrying about “do I shoot eight inch groups or 6 inch groups.”
If you can place your targets on the slope of a decent hilly backstop, then you can also start to develop your skills at shooting moving targets, as some will bounce or roll and you can try taking extra snap shots at them.
I realize all of this is from the persepctive of a civilian who started out very informally, but you sound a lot like me when I got my first long gun many, many moons ago.
As for the muzzle wobbling, you just have to practice, get used to the weight, and hit the gym if you need to.
Not wanting to talk you into something that would strain your budget, but a 22LR upper would be extremely helpful and pay for itself in ammo savings after a while. Shooting at cans, clay targets on a hillside, etc is the best idea and makes learning more fun.
I like the satisfying ‘bing’ of hitting steel. I use a 12" diameter target gong made of 5/8-inch AR500 steel, set at 100 yards hanging from a tripod made of electrical conduit and light chain.
POW!
bing!
POW!
bing!
My offhand groups are therefore Minute of Pie-Plate, but it’s still good practice.
Having used both, I can confidently say that using the ACOG is easier standing at the 200. Just wait until the chevron is in the black and gently squeeze the trigger before it leaves. It only seemed easier, for me, with iron sights because the front sight did not appear to move as much.
True story, I once shot clean from the 200 yard line in all three positions, and the 300 yard slow fire. It wasn’t until the 300 rapid that I dropped 2 points.
To this day if I tell a Marine I shot a 248 they will confidently say “Yeah man, well…the standing sucks!” :dirol:
I almost always cleared the 200, but the 300 rapid usually got me and I’d usually drop 2 - 3 points at the 500. I generally shot in the 230 - 234 range with 236 my highest in 20 years.
I’m using the AR500 targets as well. I might have a to buy a 12" for longer range off hand. I bought them for mainly pistol shooting at 15-30 yards. It would be fun to work up to 200 yards with a 12" plate.
Partner regardless of how good you get, you can never be good enough, ever. Perfection is unattainable but strive for it. It’s that extra inch, extra mile, extra shot that will always make a difference.
One thing they (at least used to) teach at Marine Corps boot camp is that there’s more than one way to skin the offhand cat. Since you are supposed to pull the trigger as you reach the bottom of an exhale anyway, try starting above the target, then exhale and as the front sight naturally passes down through the target, pull the trigger just as the front sight passes through the target. Don’t forget - you’re supposed to focus on the front sight post; NOT the target…
Personally, I did not do well with that method, but I’m a barely passable offhand shooter anyway. I was a rather good rifle coach in the 70’s and a rather bad High Power competitor in the 80’s and I’ve seen it work for many people.
and I’ve seen it work for many people.