Shivworks ECQC

I’m about to sign up for this class in May (once the contact person gets back to me) but had a couple of questions before I go to it for anyone who has taken it already.

I know it is a physically demanding class so I’ll be going into it expecting that but how is it going to be for someone without much unarmed training? I have very little and am planning on using this course to kinda get me started in all of it. Obviously it would be better to have some prior to the class but with my current schedule, I don’t know if I’m going to be able to make it to any. Is this going to be an issue or will I just have to work a little harder?

Also, does anyone know if my AIWB holster will be gtg for this class or do I need to stick with a traditional holster?

Other than that, any suggestions of things I should do to get the most out of the class?

Thanks

great course. Really a true “must take” for anyone who carries a gun.

My AAR from the one I took in NC
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=90989

and Im taking it again this year in Oct here in Pittsburgh, and Id really like to do it at least once a year or even twice this year honestly.

Dont be concerned about knowing a thing about fighting when you go in. I look at that as being concerned about knowing how to shoot to take a Level 1 firearms course… your there BECAUSE you dont know, not to prove or show what you do know. Craig does a great job of destroying the ego/macho and getting right down to learning.

Read my AAR, take a beenie or skully of some kind (trust me)

Your AIWB rig is fine. Craig runs one, has a few to try out, I ran mine in his class and he does a lot with that carry location so he can give you a lot of insight on it. I suggest you carry the way you actually carry. This is that kind of class.

We actually have him here for AMIS this weekend :smiley:

+1!!!

Great class. Don’t be afraid. You will be sore and dirty, but you will have a great time. The important thing is to show up.

Word to the wise is to keep lunch small. pack your own if necessary.

Shawn.L you will have a great time in AMIS as well. there is a lot to learn.

Thanks for the info, I’ll read that AAR right now.

I was concerned because I read in the flier that it is not for new shooters so while I consider myself to be adequate with a handgun, I was worried that the same would apply to the H2H, in which case I’d be in trouble.

As of right now, I don’t carry (I turn twenty in eleven days) but I plan to go AIWB when I start so that’s what I’ll take. I’m glad that he runs an AIWB rig as well so that he can help me out with it.

Have you had the prerequisite level of firearms training ?

The part about not carrying yet but going AIWB first things perks my ears up. Perhaps I assumed too much. You can PM southnarc on this forum or find him on www.totalprotectioninteractive.com and ask the man himself .

Good advice given so far. One option might be to run some of the SIMS evolutions AIWB, and the live fire from a conventional holster. Craig does a great job of maintaining a safe environment while letting you get into a hole that’s just deep enough to make you struggle, but not go into vapor lock. (Sometimes his idea of deep enough and yours might not match up :D) Ping Craig here or at TPI and he can square you away.

Just to clear some things up, I shoot quite a bit and have had the AIWB holster for a few months now (I picked it up because I’ve been working at drawing from concealment and other things that I feel someone should have down before they start carrying, not after. I had a conventional holster for a while and didn’t like the way it concealed with a full size M&P). I’m not new to a pistol and have the required training for the class, I just have had no formal training with AIWB.

I took his class in October in IL. It was an eye opener!
A couple points:

-Bring a headband or skullcap, as noted above

-Live fire was conducted between maybe 7 yards and BBD. You don’t need to be a handgun wizard to complete this course, but you should be able to clear your holster and cover garment quickly and safely. You should also be able to reload in and out of battery, and clear malfunctions (which will be key during FoF). At the class that I attended, this is what slowed down students and the class in general.

-Round count came in around 400. Southnarc is heavy on repetition on the movements, not so much on actually pulling the trigger. Maximum time working on what you came here for (close quarter draw and presentation) not as much on actually pulling the trigger (but you do). This works MUCH better than it sounds on paper.

-If you’re traveling or staying overnight for this class, don’t pack PT gear; you won’t want to. Pack muscle balm (Ben-Gay, Flexall, etc). Stretch.

-Keep notes as best as you can. I have a 5 page AAR that I never posted online; just kept to share with my other department instructors.

-MUC portion will cover a lot of practical application of things you may have learned in a jujitsu class or high school wrestling, but put into a different setting. If you’ve had even a smidgen of prior grappling experience, you’ll recognize some of the principles. I’m 32, and have been in martial arts since I was 6. I spent a good amount of time in FMA and JKD; if you have experience in these arts, consider yourself a martial arts nerd, and you’ll pick up a lot of new stuff, and see the application of things you may have learned in the past and questioned. If you are a FMA, JKD, or MMA guy who also EDC’s, this class is mandatory

-The sims evolutions are excellent. You will be tested and pushed beyond your comfort zone. This portion will tie in everything else you learned over the rest of the course. You will be uncomfortable, possibly hurt. You will fall down, and break your ego. The helmets reduce visibility and are hot; this adds to the experience. But you’ll learn and prevail. If you didn’t already carry AIWB, this portion will convince you of some of its benefits. I’m working this concept in to my EDC largely as a result of this course.

-For LEOs: my recommendation is to attend in plainclothes/off duty gear, not duty/tactical gear. What you learn will still translate over, but learning the material and concepts, especially the FoF portion, will be easier if you’re not fighting your gear. Higher propensity for injury as well. I attended in duty gear, and regretted it during the live fire portions, and just ran the sims gun AIWB in my pants for the FoF. See Pat McNamara’s advice on training FOR a fight as opposed to training LIKE you fight. Southnarc also mentioned that he has a class geared towards LEOs as well; that is probably worth looking into.

-Pack lunch, and eat light. This class is usually filled with guys who are already accomplished shooters, martial artists, or armed professionals. Good conversation ensues. Craig is also a great guy to shoot the shit with.

-Lastly, this class is in many ways about losing. One of Craig’s adages is that an honest loss is more valuable than a dishonest win. If you walk away from ECQC thinking that you’re cock of the walk, or high shooter, then you wasted your money. Use this class to identify and rectify the aspects of gunfighting and personal defense where you may be lacking. You should leave with a list of things in your “SUSTAIN” column, but more in your “IMPROVE” column.

You won’t be disappointed.

Great class - a “must take” class. I snicker at some of the folks who go back and forth (arguing) about guns and holsters and general shooting concepts, but have never taken this class. There is a very real possibility your gun and your ability to shoot a bulls-eye, or even to be impressive in a shoothouse environment will not save your ass in a real scenario when you are encroached upon and assaulted by one or more individuals. The “gun talk” is all fine and dandy, but I know many fine shooters who are very proud of their abilities with a firearm (some are even “instructors”) and many of these people would fail miserably when put to the test that this class imposes upon you. Many would not be able to access their weapon at the appropriate time or would lose control of their weapon in a real close-quarters encounter.

Not banging on the gun-guys, because the same can be said for folks who think because they can run a marathon this makes them ready for an intense physical fight-for-your-life. I am merely pointing out what many folks think is “sufficient,” is really “necessary, but not sufficient” for an optimal outcome in these scenarios. If you don’t believe it, take the class and test your assumptions.

This class gives you real insight into how interpersonal conflict at this level develops, envelops you, and can be resolved. There are very, very few neat and clean resolutions. Typically, anyone who successfully negotiates the scenarios/conflicts presented in this class still end up exhausted, battered and with a healthy respect for how complex the process can be.

I took this class with a couple fellow LEOs. If you are a uniformed/patrol officer, I am of the strong opinion that taking the class with your duty gear is the only way to go. My experience, and my fellow officers agreed, was running the training and scenarios with duty gear gave us real insight into how we and our gear would perform in an on-duty encounter (retention holsters etc). I broke a cuff case, but was impressed with our ability to retain our sidearms (using Safariland SLS/ALS holsters) in the most adverse conditions. Additionally, it is good to be aware of how duty-gear can restrict your movement, especially on the ground. This knowledge is invaluable. SouthNarc was very accommodating for the LE element in our class. He let us use our duty gear, which we were thankful for, and choose whether to run the scenarios as civilian or LEO.

Finally, I was very apprehensive about taking this class. I was in great shape and am a decent shooter, but had no real H2H skills. Also, I am not a real aggressive, high-testosterone type of guy. I would much rather talk myself out of most conflict. Believe me, in ECQC you will get all kinds of opportunity to talk yourself out of conflict. Then, you will get an opportunity to see what happens when you fail to to do so. So, as much as I consider myself conflict-averse, I realize I need to know how to handle these situations to the best of my ability

There several factors that will influence your performance in the scenarios, here is a short (not comprehensive) list:

  • level of fitness (we had all levels in the class - the more fit, the better off you are, obviously, but you rarely make it through these encounters without being exhausted

  • size/strength (this is independent of fitness level - During one exercise (pummeling), I encountered a guy who I blew away in terms of fitness level, but he was so big and strong he literally could have dislocated my shoulder with brute strength during without so much as getting out of breath - (it is a very disquieting feeling)

  • H2H skill level (one of my fellow officers is an experienced MMA/grappler and very fit - he had the ability to dominate guys larger than him and he’s small guy - maybe 5’7" 155 lbs)

  • capacity for violence and aggressiveness - some guys just have more of this than others. It is huge advantage if you leverage it correctly. It could be a disadvantage if it short-circuits your ability to make decisions under stress, which leads me to…

  • cognition, communication and decision-making under stress - again, some are better at this than others.

All of these factors have to be acknowledged and accounted for. They can also be developed or compensated for to at least some degree.

SouthNarc did an excellent job of pairing up individuals with opponents for the scenarios. I could have gotten my ass seriously beaten if he had not done this. He wants you to learn from the experience, not simply get tromped buy some guys. SouthNarc is an incredible instructor. Simply one of the best I’ve encountered.

Take the class. You will not regret it.

Interesting. I went in the opposite direction afterwards.

interesting, Id like to hear why

I ran it AIWB (all my carry gear) and was not only very pleased with my set up but got A LOT of info out of Craig on working with it specifically.

I’m signed up for the same class here in March.
Signing up at the local BJJ gym for their ‘beginner’ program so as to not be totally clueless on the ground.

Thanks everyone for all the reviews and the info. All the positive things I’m reading are making me even more excited for the class.

I wish I could. I’ve done some research and found what looks like a very good BJJ gym not too far from me but with 18 credit hours and a job, its hard to find time for much else. I definitely will once school gets out but that is only two weeks before the class.

this class has my interest. i’ve seen a few aar and i’ve seen a few ecqc videos on youtube. it seems the emphasis is to make it real-world and address a gap in training. tons of questions come to mind:

what are the class rules?
from the videos, “break” from SN means stop. are submission holds allowed? one of the videos showed a student going for an armbar. is tapping-out allowed at any time to stop the action? do the helmets mean strikes to the head are allowed? what else is allowed/not allowed?

is justified lethal force emphasized? many of the videos show the good guy retreat and then immediately go to using the gun when grappling starts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZCWdI-L7w4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP33BEla5FY

what is the video and photo policy? i don’t think anyone wants to have a video on youtube showing them get seriously hurt or showing them get their ass kicked. there are various skill and experience levels in this class. if videos and photos are allowed by all, do you think the students put a show on for the camera? in your class did students leave their ego at home?

what have you changed in your life as a result of taking this class?
what overall message did you get from taking this class?

There is no tapping out. You do get hit in the head. You are coached through several different maneuvers before you apply them. You are taught everything that is allowed, almost everything, before you grapple.

Don’t be scared. Everyone is real cool. Ego is not an issue. It’s really “the douche free zone” for a reason. The megalomaniacs don’t do stuff where they can be put to a real test and actually lose.

As far as cameras go, some people can’t be on video for persec. You should ask first. My class was videoed the whole time by Seth. He knows the material well and put together a great video. Really the best ecqc vid on the Internet. There is also no putting on a show for the camera. You have your hands full staying alive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_vyKhesJE0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I have changed a lot of things since I took this class. I lok at situations much different. I learned the hard way, to never expose my back in a fight. The most important thing I can think of right now, is not going for a weapon before a certain criteria has been met.

This is a squared away class. You won’t regret it. Everyone is real cool, so don’t think you are going to be eaten alive.

Here is my take on some of this. Keep in mind, I am merely relaying my experience/perspective, which in no way comes close being authoritative on the matter.

Class rules: SouthNarc could address that best, but in general you could say keep in mind that everyone should be there to learn and to facilitate the learning process for others. You should not be there to bolster your ego or show everyone how cool or skilled you are. My class had an former SEAL team member and an active Army SF soldier in it. Both had been in the class at least once before (maybe more) and they both were helping everyone learn as much as they could (quiet professionals - yep, that phrase fit them perfectly). Their mere presence in the course as repeat students should be indicative of the value this class has. Conversely, you are not there to give anything less than all you have or to shrink from a challenge. My impression was that safety of all the participants was always a primary consideration for both fellow students and the instructor.

  • I saw a submission in my class. My buddy (a MMA/BJJ fellow) was able to get to to the rear of his opponent and applied a choke. SouthNarc ended it very quickly once the choke materialized. Keep in mind, this was not necessarily a “desired outcome” and I believe my buddy did this almost out of reflex associated with his training and background.

In the video of the event, SouthNarc can be heard saying “No, no (insert name here)…” or something to that effect because this evol is essentially a deadly force encounter and the basic idea is to get the hell away from the attacker(s) or to end it as decisively as possible (obtain proper position, acquire weapon and end the threat). You can argue that my buddy could have terminated the threat using the choke, but it would also be possible the bad guy could have successfully defended/countered or otherwise accessed an edged weapon, which would have either dragged on the fight or taken it to another level.

In this particular case, my guess was SouthNarc did not want my buddy treating this like it was an MMA match. This is not the same thing as saying MMA skills are not extraordinarily useful in this context. They absolutely are invaluable, but you do not want to treat a life-threatening encounter like an MMA match. There are some critical points where they diverge from each other. SouthNarc points out all of this in the class.

Striking is allowed, but participants are reminded why they are there and to essentially not be an idiot with them. One thing I noticed about striking that may be peculiar to me as one not-so-skilled in the fighting arts, I did not see near as much striking as I thought I would. In fact, there are times I forgot about striking completely until I was struck. That brings you to your senses fairly quickly. Head strikes are allowed if they are done with good discretion. You wear a FIST helmet and mouthguard. SouthNarc breaks the action immediately if he sees a problem (helmet coming off etc) or if someone is ramping it up into “psycho” territory.

To allay your fears, prior to taking this class I had a basal skull fracture from a fall a couple years earlier. It was significant enough to cause leak cerebral-spinal fluid out my nose. Luckily, I recovered without surgery, but it scared me quite a bit and made me paranoid about head-injury. The leak recurred one time since then due to some Def-Tac training I was doing with my buddies without decent protective gear. I was worried about getting struck in the head at this class because of this prior injury. I made up my mind to suck it up and take the class. I took a couple bops to the head, but nothing that would cause concern while wearing the appropriate protective gear.

From what I experienced, striking was a means-to-an-end, not an end in and of itself. I suppose if you were very skilled (or even lucky) you could knock a guy out early on (assuming real-life encounter - the class is not a place to be trying to knock out someone), but once you get entangled you become consumed with trying to control your opponent, protect/retain your weapon and achieve a dominant position. Any strikes that can help you achieve those things are fine, but it is not like a fight at high school or the bar. The presence of weapons (disproportionate armament) and the fact the scenario is posited as a life/death struggle changes the game considerably.

In many of these scenarios (especially two-on-one), you don’t know “it’s on” until “it’s on” and you’re getting assaulted (unequal initiative). Sure, you realize you are in a class where people are going to assault you, but in trying to keep with the principles of training for real-life, you cannot just pull your handgun and start blazing because some guy came up to you and asked you for a cigarette. You’ll quickly learn how much of a liability it is to draw a handgun prematurely.

Lethal force - Is it emphasized? In my opinion, no. The first four hours of the class is MUC or Managing Unknown Contacts. It contains extremely useful information on how to avoid confrontations and gives you techniques/strategies for dealing with these encounters. So, it is fair to say the class is not biased towards solving the problem with lethal force. Beyond that, this class does very effectively allow you to experience learning how to operate in the following context:

“You are up to your neck in it, how are you going to survive this encounter?”

Appropriately, you do spend time learning when and how to deploy your lethal force option. After all, the course is designed to prepare you for “Extreme close-quarters” encounters. However, there is no pre-determined outcome for the scenarios and your judgement and decision-making can have a major impact on the use-of-force deployment and ultimate outcomes. No one strips you of the flexibility to respond in creative ways and possibly to defuse or escape a dire situation. interestingly, I did see at least two scenarios play out many times. People fall back on deploying their handgun when 1) The threat may not justify it, or 2) When they are not in the proper position to do so (and lose the gun or at least struggle to retain it). Knives can also be in play for these scenarios.

In my case, I ran the 2-1 scenario as an LEO. Even though I was up against two people, my initial contact was a single person who was hysterically reporting their daughter had been injured. This person continually encroached upon me setting off all the alarms it should have. I responded as best I could, but did not draw my sidearm. I simply could not justify drawing down on the guy at that time (could not articulate a threat requiring deadly force as a response). I certainly was not going to play it like a game and draw on him because I knew I was in ECQC and likely to be attacked.

Before long, I was so cognitively overloaded and hyper-focused on this guy (thinking he was gonna jump me) that I did not see the second attacker who blinded me from the right side. I went down hard with two guys on me - which can be very disorienting. At that point, I am “in it” and am concerned with retaining my weapon. I was never able to recover to get a good position from which to act offensively. In fact, the FIST helmet pressed up against my face tightly and blacked out my vision. Breathing was very difficult, so I focused on not panicking. It was a very good learning experience. I can see where the stress-inoculation aspect of doing this can be valuable in and of itself.

This class changed my perspective on what I need to do to ensure my safety and prevail in a similar encounter. It also opened my eyes up to the reality of deploying a firearm in a truly close-quarters (I can reach out and touch you-distance) encounter. Not many folks really understand that, even fewer get to experience it.

Hope this helps. Take the class.