I wanted to start this thread in order to have folks who participate actively or plan to participate actively in this “Precision” sub forum weigh in with their exact thoughts and definition of what the term “Precision” actually means and translates to in the real world when shooting the said “Precision” rifles.
IMHO…
“Precision” is not only a form of shooting with a rifle, it’s a specific set of specs/parts that make up certain rifles, and it’s also a mentality or mindset using a much more methodical and deliberate approach to shooting. Quite frankly, “good enough” need not apply…it’s all about striving for ultimate perfection using numerous aspects in order to fulfill that perfection.
“Combat” or “practical” accuracy has NO place in the “Precision” realm, owning a colt 6920 and scoping it out for a day w. some match quality ammo to fire some groups or shoot some LR steel is completely beyond the pale of true “Precision”…Yet so many people believe that because they don’t break in their CL barrel on their M4, or they wait for thousands of rounds before cleaning it, or that SS barrels are a waste, or that they didn’t need a FF rail, etc., and they just shot some “precision” groups with their non “Precision” rifle they some how have merit to speak on the topic of true “precision”.
This is a really niche’d sub forum, not everyone and every rifle apply…I just think it’s important to draw a clear line between “precision” and “practical”…and try and keep as much “practical” as we can outta this subforum. It’s completely killing this forum imho.
The “how often do I clean my barrel” thread in the General or technical AR discussion sub forums should be completely different then the “how often do I clean my match SS precision barrel” thread in this “Precision” subforum for example.
The phrase…“why use a filet mignon when a sloppy joe gets the job done” might work in the other various sub forums, however in this one it’s not applicable in the least.
“Good enough” and “precision” is in my book an oxymoron.
I believe it has much to do with the rifles intended purpose. Why did the person build/buy that particular rifle. If it was to shoot, or learn to shoot, sub-moa groups at distance then I believe they belong in this sub forum.
Their first build may not accomplish their goal, but this should be where they come to learn what changes they need to make, in their rifle, ammo and shooting technique, in order to achieve their goal.
I went with the Mk12 Mod 1 as my “Precision” rig. Its capable of 1/2 MOA when shot in a mechanical rest, but its light enough to carry in the field if needed.
I setup my 4in steel plate at 400 yards 3 days ago. We managed to have just a slight breeze and a slightly overcast day. I put 20 out of 20 75gr Hornady BTHP Match handloads on this steel plate. This was shooting off of just sand bags(front and rear).
The whole purpose of this build was to fill a role of Precision Rifle, Im working on getting 550 yards setup at home, and I’d like to see what it does at that distance.
Personally I don’t break in my match SS barrels per say, I do however clean very often. I buy into and document as much as I can things like mirage effects, cold bore shots, higher temp’s on SS barrels and how that translates to precision accuracy opening up, etc. I take none of those things into consideration outside of “precision” and by extension outside of this subforum.
I also don’t think anyone should have to shoot certain group sizes to qualify for discussion in this subforum…its all about chasing the most accuracy that is possible for their said application.
to me, a “precision” semi-auto is one that can provide accurate fire at distance at a rapid rate. My only real experience with it is watching others use a Mk12 and my own experience with the weapon. We used it as an extension of a M16/M4. It had the ability to see further than our 4x Acogs and provide accurate fire further downrange. On the flip side, you could put it on group therapy and send lead down range.
the military definition and the civilian definition are different. an example of this would be that military precision is what trident calls “practical” from what I can tell.
IMO, the semi auto version of “precision” is what most are referring to as practical. If I wanted a true precision rifle, I would get a bolt gun as that seems to be the most effective way to consistently get sub .5moa groups.
One main identifier of a precision rifle is the optics, not by them self but when coupled with the accuracy needed to hit your desired target at your max effective range. The ability to range a target, dial in/ holdover with the correct dope and make not only first round but repeated hits on the desired target seperates a precision rifle from one where you can make the hits, but you have to take multiple rounds to do so.
With my semi auto rifles I expect 1moa or less either from single 10 round groups or multiple 5 round groups. After initial sight in/ group shooting is finished I like to shoot in a more “practical” sense. Engaging multiple targets at extended distance and running drills on targets at varied distances not adjusting knobs, are what I consider worthwhile practice.
Shooting small groups from the bench or prone at known distance is fun, but there are a lot more skills necessary to correctly use a precision rifle. I have started shooting in some local competitions and that is by far the best training I have encountered. This makes you get outside of your comfort level and practice things you normally avoid because they aren’t as fun.
This is a great thread and something from which this old reloader is learning. Back when I was younger I was able to take a lot of hunting rifles, work up a good load for the owner, and have what I thought was a fair tack driver which would normally drive the varmint hunters nuts when they were sighting in next to me.
Times have definitely changed now that I’m getting back into the shooting game(s). Precision is not only getting tighter but the distances are beyond what I would have expected decades ago. Deer shot over 200 yards back then with an average rifle was unheard of, and thought not to be ethical. 400 yard kill capable rounds were limited to 4 thirty years ago; my old 26-06 was one of them even though it was on the seemingly maligned Ruger M-77 platform. Now there are more choices for scopes, rifles (semi-auto and bolt), and accessories that the new definition of precision is unbelievable.
Ive personally always veiwed a “precision” semi auto rifle as more of a DMR type gun. It might not shoot as accurately as a good bolt gun, but it makes up for it with faster second round hits.
I would define a precision semi auto rifle as one that is purposely built to be accurate at long range. This will usually have a free float stainless barrel and a decent optic. I dont believe it needs to be a high powered optic as not all scenarios call for that, but it should have some magnification (at least 3x) to help identify targets at range.
Should be very doable, my MK12 MOD 0 hits consistantly at 650 on a 12 by 12 plate. Last time out ot was very windy, and the only misses were durning gusts over the windy condition we were shooting, funny though, they were all about a foot off, and if you compensated, when the gusts were up, I was right back on. In calm it will do 20 out of 20 shooting M262, with wind you just need to dial the windage.
Maybe this is all obvious, but I think for Semi-Automatic Rifle Precision, there is a three-way triangle, kind of like a Fire Triangle, where each side has a significant effect on the other two sides of the triangle.
To me, the SARP Triangle would be:
Barrel – Long-range, medium range, close quarter, battlefield, etc. Weight – Barrel profile, barrel length, receiver, scopes, mounts, stocks, bipods, compactness, etc. Stamina – Chrome-Lined vs. SS, Match trigger or battle trigger, FSB or folding or no sights, fancy coatings or mil-spec, etc.
So, to me, SD/HD SARP would be some kind of light rifle that can shoot 30-rounds at a 150-yard 3” group in less than 2-minutes.
A dig-in and fight SARP needs to be very accurate with a low rate of fire with the appropriate barrel, triggers, stocks, etc, so it will have to weigh more.
And so on…
I would consider a lightweight 16” M4 that can shoot 10-shots 1.5” group in < 1-minute at a 100-yards to be an precision rifle.
So, there will be compromises on these three “sides” to reach the accuracy necessary for the given purpose for a gun.
This is all iron sights, not scoped weapons…I’m not worried about MOA, my sniper days ended in 1990…I’m concerned with rounds in the 10 ring…
I don’t consider my 6920 to be a precision rifle. I can consistantly keep it in the black out to 300 yards without too much thought. It is a tool that is there if and when I need it. This is after 21 some odd years of running various weapons in the Corps.
I consider the RRA NMA4 to be a precision rifle. I can shoot the CMP XTC better with this rifle than I could with a M-16A2 that was issued to me and I took very good care of. With the SS 1/8 barrel, two stage trigger, and NM sights it is pretty much a no brainer. RRA has a lot of hate from some people, I have no problems with that, the rifle has preformed exceptionally on CMP courses of fire for two years now.
This is the rifle that I bought for my 15 yr old daughter when she started participating in CMP events. Her being a novice to shooting; 2 months after her first shot with a firearm she was competing in CMP matches, pretty much taught me what a precision semi rifle needs to be.
A precision rifle needs to be ‘user friendly,’ a novice or seasoned shooter should be able to pick it up and consistantly hit within the 9 ring from 600 yards.
BTW, my now 17 yr old daughter hates the fact that she has to use a bore guide and constantly clean the bore while I just drop some USGI issued cleaning rods down the 6920.
There is some really fantastic replies thus far in this thread, and I must admit that not only do I see that I took my personal view of precision a bit to seriously(i.e. only thought my definition had merit and had been well formulated), but that part of the reason I started this thread was due to frustration over some of the thread/content in this sub forum…and essentially was venting to some degree. So while I still have a personal guideline and definition of precision, I know understand that I need to take into consideration that perhaps the definition of “precision” is relative to each end user and their particular experience level/application.
I really like the effort most M4C’rs put into a thread like this. It’s nice that most here recognized this isn’t the proverbial…who makes the best xyz pile on thread, and participation in it requires a well formulated and thought provoking reply. This is the definition so far of…there are no right or wrong replies, only substantive ones:)
Great pic by the way JW…a tack driving SPR tends to make one think of the term “precision” semi auto rifle:cool:
