I’ll begin with the obligatory, “I am well aware 22LR is not a good choice for self-defense, esp when fired from a pistol, and that more appropriate rounds abound.” That out of the way…
I was reading on another site (southnarc’s site) about “old man” and “old woman” guns (could also apply to younger folks prematurely afflicted by arthritis or other ailments or simply frail). These individuals may not have the requisite hand strength to cycle the action on a strong sprung semi auto or unwilling/unable to withstand much recoil without pain. One post on this or another site similar topic related how some would not practice because of the discomfort, but were too proud to admit it. Bottom line, if you’re recommending a pistol to someone who meets these criteria and 22 LR is the best they can handle, what would you recommend for a handgun they would carry and keep on their person so they were prepared for the worst from the current options? Both in terms of pistol/revolver and load (stinger, velociter, mini mag, etc)? Based on what I’ve read until now, I was thinking 22 version of the S&W 442 no lock (trigger pull may be too much work), S&W 317 snub, or perhaps a ruger MkII or Browning Buckmark…thoughts? NOTE: posted in the semi-auto section but revolver is certainly valid response
I’ve never shot a .22 auto that I’d consider reliable enough for defense, caliber aside. If someone cast a spell on me that only allowed me to carry a .22LR I’d probably go with a S&W 43C and the Apex action kit. At least it would be concealable and reliable. I’d load it with whatever ammunition has the most penetration. For someone with little training, low likelihood to train, or poor eyesight I’d probably get a Crimson Trace grip.
In reality I think there are better choices than .22 even for someone with a disability. Even training with .22 and carrying 9mm would be better than carrying .22.
I know that a 22 sucks. I wrote that in the preface. I’ll reiterate, “A 22 sucks for defense”. Think your 90 yr old granny or something or a disabled person who WON’T/CAN’T train if you give them too much gun. Not you training with your 9mm ECD. Think you CAN’T do what you can now. Think they fear the recoil.
A Ruger LCR 22. If they are affected by hand issues to the point of needing to use a .22, then the lighter trigger on the LCR (compared to S&W) would be preferable. With ignition issues more prevalent in rimfire ammo I would prefer a revolver to a semi auto.
Until my gf was comfortable with a 9mm, she carried a Taurus .22 revolver with CCI Stingers. Yes, not ideal, but she was willing to shoot it a lot at the range, and had the confidence she could hit a bad guy at close range. She also felt good with the reliability and simplicity of a revolver.
Lets face it…you’re not going to engage in a firefight at any kind of distance with a .22 pistol. These are nose guns…as in “stick it up the nose of your attacker and pull the trigger”. They’re accurate out to about 15 feet…that’s it. However, If one had to carry only a .22, I would probably go for one of the North American Arms like this one:
My father carries one just like that every day, whether he’s CCW’ing his 1911 or not. Keys, knife, change, .22 - It’s just another one of those things that’s always in his pocket, no matter what.
Randy Lee told me that the Apex kit is not designed for either .22 or .22 magnum revolvers. I am told that there is little most 'smiths will do to a Smith J frame .22, out of concerns for compromising reliability. I have a 43, 317 and 351. The 351, .22 magnum, has a horrendously heavy trigger, which I doubt a person without excellent hand strength could shoot well. I carry the adjustable sight, 3.5 +/- inch barrel model 317 in my range bag and try to shoot it every centerfire range session to improve my trigger control on semi-auto pistols. With the 317, I can ring my 8 inch steel, support hand only with ease out to 25 yards, but with my fixed sight model 43, my fast hit range is much less due to the inability to adjust sights and the relative crudeness of the fixed sights compared to the sights on the 317.
If I was carrying a .22, for the OP’s purpose, it would be the adjustable sight model 317.
I would suggest, forgive me I don’t recall the model designation, the Beretta 22 with the tip-up barrel. I think it is the bobcat, but I am not sure. It holds 6 or 8 rounds per mag. I have one, I haven’t shot in probably 10 years. It is a very small bug, that in my experience, is very reliable and accurate. The trigger, while not great, is certainly better than a revolver. The only problem is, no extractor in the slide to eject the round in the event of a dud. Also, the mag release is in a wierd spot.
Good luck!
While I personally have no experience with that particular handgun, a friend of mine does…
He couldn’t get the thing to fire reliably (more than a mag or two, IIRC) without the removal of some excess metal on the slide - from what he told me, I certainly wouldn’t even consider one of those things - I’m no machinist (like he is) and have no use for a weapon that requires that sort of tuning in order to function.
I’ll second the poor reliability of the Beretta. I had one that couldn’t fire 3 consecutive shots without jamming. There are also multiple small controls that complicate things as dexterity becomes impaired. I would only consider Smith or Ruger revolvers. The SP 101 is excellent and i think it is now available in an 8-10 shot version. Smith also offers models (or did) in 22 mag for additional power w/o recoil. If it had to be an auto, I would think the M&P 22 to be a contender.
The problem with 22LR pistols is that most are designed as “budget” guns, so you will always run into reliability issues with a much higher rate than you normally see on larger caliber guns (pistol or otherwise). As you know, magazines are critical to the function of an autoloader, yet the mags that are available for most 22LR pistols are utter crap because of cost constraints. The Ruger MkII you mention is a prime example of this. That is why, caliber aside, I would not suggest any autoloading 22LR pistol for self defense.
Truth be told, if I were infirm enough that I couldn’t/wouldn’t handle a centerfire pistol, I’d be happier with a pepper spray fogger. I lost a neighborhood friend to a 22LR as a kid, so I appreciate the fact that it is a lethal round. However, the power to kill is secondary to the power to incapacitate. Even an ultimately lethal wound from a 22LR would have to be in a pretty special place to instantly incapacitate the type of attacker who could shrug off a snootful of OC.
I’ve been considering the Ruger LCR 22 as well for my 86` year old Dad. A second alternative I’ve been mulling over is to go with a .38spl. loaded with wadcutters.
Pepper spray makes a great deal of sense as well.
No matter what is finally chosen, there will have to be a back-up stashed in the bathroom
what I have found in many years of experience is those folks who have trouble racking slides also can’t handle double action trigger pulls either. I have found a single action autoloader to be the best choice. With exposed hammers you can cock the hammer first prior to racking the slide to chamber a round which greatly decreases the resistance to chambering the round. Call me crazy but for example with my small statured wife who has grip strength issues the easiest gun for her to manipulate and shoot effectively was a1911 with light target loads.
If you need a .22LR handgun for defensive use, my vote is the Ruger LCR-22. It is a concealable, simple to operate handgun in .22LR, and the trigger is easier to manipulate than the S&W J Frames. I’d feel more confident in the revolver’s reliability over a semi in .22LR.
I had a Beretta 21a and it was reliable but only with two specific types of 22lr. As noted revolvers require a heavy hammer spring for reliable ignition of the rimfire round. I’d recommend a Colt Mustang or Govt. 380. Try a 38spl with light loads or even a 32 revolver or 32acp auto. I’m just not convinced that anyone frail enough that they can’t handle recoil of those rounds, could handle pulling a double action trigger. If they can’t or aren’t willing to develop the strength to fire a small centerfire, then pepper spray or a taser might be a better choice.
In the end you can kill a grizzly with a 22lr but it’s a moot point if the grizzly kills you before you get that final shot that gets the job done.
Claude Werner’s experience with the “Little Old Man Gun” and the other thread with the “Little Old Lady Gun” are well worth reading on Southnarc’s site.
I note that Claude, a man of some experience, has found the Beretta 21 and the Taurus ploy copy to be reliable enough to use as carry guns. My experience with the Beretta 21s has always been positive as long as one doesn’t use bulk ammo for defensive carry.
I think the .22lr LCR is well worth looking at.
On a side note, it’s not always strength but ability to tolerate recoil.
I can fire any trigger pull on a handgun you can give me (still shoot my Nagant revolver just fine and it’s 25lb plus on DA), and my bench press is still in the 300lb range, but due to arthritis and carpal tunnel issues over the years my ability to deal with the post effects of recoil is greatly diminished.
I can shoot anything I want and handle it well, but I’ll pay for it the next day, and maybe for the next week or more.
I’m getting a lot of good practice in with my snub 317.
[QUOTE=citizensoldier16;1412360]Lets face it…you’re not going to engage in a firefight at any kind of distance with a .22 pistol. These are nose guns…as in “stick it up the nose of your attacker and pull the trigger”. They’re accurate out to about 15 feet…that’s it. However, If one had to carry only a .22, I would probably go . … … [QUOTE]
.22lr guns can be as accurate than any service pistol. I wouldn’t start chunking lead at 150 yards, but I can knock down 6" silloetts at 40 and 50 yards more consistently than with either of my service pistols. It wouln’t be my go too gun, but I’d empty the magazine at a bad guy before chunking it at him. Probably more effective than my other reaction of screaming like a 12 year old girl and exposing him to my haletosis.
The problem with most .22’s is that the reliable and accurate ones with light trigger pulls (Ruger 22/45, Buckmark, etc) are not conducive to CCW being full size guns and the whole “won’t train” thing means they will drop the mag when they mean to take it off safe.
The small ones that are easy to CCW have either horrible reliability, poor DA triggers or both.
The advice of thumbcocking a DA revolver might work or they might slip the hammer half way out and ND into the ground or lock the gun up if it has a half cock notch.
I guess my advice would be some kind of SA only revolver without a halfcock notch. As long as they can be trusted to not leave the hammer cocked the chances of an ND are minimal. They will have lousy sights for anything but daylight shooting.
None of these guns have decent holsters on the market for CCW so that means a custom holster.
Aside from the junkers & pocket guns I’ve yet to see a .22 that won’t shoot as well or better than current service handguns.
