I’m not so sure that I would call that a pissing match when really it was an end user jumping in to check the claims of a KAC employee that was seizing an opportunity to bash their main competition. Additionally, the bashing was completely unprovoked as there was zero mention of KAC products, good or bad, in this thread prior to this shot across the bow. I really hope that M4C community recognizes these shenanigans.
I love KAC products and own a few, but no way is there a performance delta corresponding to a 100% price disparity between these two products. That comment is a ridiculous attempt at justifying a gun that is over the top expensive. And like the SR25 hasn’t had its issues either… There are more iterations of the SR25 than there are of Magpul Pmags! How many times do you want to drop $4-$5k before they finally settle on something that works as it should! As much as I wanted one, I sure am glad I didn’t buy and EMC now that the ECC is out (with yet another +$1K jump in price).
The spec’d 5 rpm is for those that are being employed in a precision role, as per the requirements of the M110/Mk11. The shorter, newer guns are built for a different purpose (one that you are well aware of), and to a different requirement and firing schedule.
Don’t be dissuaded into thinking any gun is perfect, because they aren’t.
Absolutely agree.
I’m not trying to tell anyone that we make the perfect gun, simply trying to provide information when it comes up.
Bashing?
I noted that the Mk17 is not general issue, and has publicly known problems.
My affiliation with Knight’s is crystal clear, and I understand why you may think that I am trying to denigrate their product for personal gain, but individual sales of our products and FN products has zero impact on me. I liaise between our military and government end users and our company to provide them with what they ask for. I don’t sell anything, I meet requirements and refine products. Here on M4Carbine I have been a moderator for far longer than I have been an employee of Knight’s. My resume is easily found by anyone looking for it. I was involved in the SCAR program since EUA 3 and am still bound by nondisclosure agreements (NDAs) from then, which I have not and will not violate.
Additionally, the bashing was completely unprovoked as there was zero mention of KAC products, good or bad, in this thread prior to this shot across the bow. I really hope that M4C community recognizes these shenanigans.
I compared the M110/M110K1 to the Mk17 since they are the only two modern 7.62 weapons being used by the military. The Mk17 is a new acquisition, and is often compared to the past performance of legacy SR25s, where it should be compared to the newer purpose-built models. These new products have the benefit of decades of data gathering and refinement. As I said before, I am sure that given the same refinement the Mk17 will iron out the issues and become more versatile.
My “drive-by” initial post was not an unprovoked assault, simply a jumping board for discussion. Some would call it a Socratic approach.
I love KAC products and own a few, but no way is there a performance delta corresponding to a 100% price disparity between these two products. That comment is a ridiculous attempt at justifying a gun that is over the top expensive. And like the SR25 hasn’t had its issues either… There are more iterations of the SR25 than there are of Magpul Pmags! How many times do you want to drop $4-$5k before they finally settle on something that works as it should! As much as I wanted one, I sure am glad I didn’t buy and EMC now that the ECC is out (with yet another +$1K jump in price).
I’m not here to tell you that you need a $4k anything. If you are happy with what you own, and it does what you want it to do, then I would say that you made a smart purchase. Sometimes it takes $1 to get what you need, sometimes it takes $1,000,000, it all depends on what you want.
To the OP,
As others have mentioned, there is a large price difference in ammo between 556 and 762. This has huge implications when considering training. I do not know your skill set or background, but there is always something new to learn or try. Pushing out a thousand rounds for 360 or over 500, it can add up quickly. Also, the entry level cost of a scar 17 vs a “standard” AR is quite large. For the same price as a SCAR, you could have a BCM with an optic, training, and ammo. If money is not such an issue, then by all means ignore my argument. Others have also made good comments about the 308/223 discussion.
Sidenote- part of me still wants to ignore the price logic and buy a SCAR 17 for myself as a second “black rifle”
I got a SCAR 17 and started using it as my patrol rifle. It is more versatile than the M4 or any 5.56 carbine.
I got the Scar and set it up so it could fill the role as a LEO patrol rifle where we have to deal with large animals like bear and moose. I have it set up with a off set Aimpoint R1 and a Nightforce 2.5-10. So it also can fill in if need be as a precision rifle for LEO type ranges fairly easily. It does have downsides I can not shoot it as fast as my 5.56 carbines nor is it as manurverable. But it does the mission I need it to do. I have more unique needs being in Alaska. If bears were not an issue then I would probably go back to on of my 5.56 carbines.
Pat
F2S, If my initial assessment of your intentions was off base I apologize. I appreciate your wanting to jump on board, but alluding to a body of evidence that you are bound from discussing while working for the competition is going raise flags in my mind (and going to make for a short converation that will beg more questions than it answers). I absolutely believe that you believe in and thus stand behind the superiority of your product (i.e., drink the KoolAid, we all do).
Some of my posts were meant for the “AR10s don’t work” thread, but got placed in here due to the course of the discussion and stop and go posting from my phone.
On the original topic:
I find the 308 to be more versatile than 5.56, individual weapons will all have their quirks. I would recommend picking a caliber first and then figuring out which gun best fits your needs.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
I’m glad you pointed out the maneuverability issue. Any .308 rifle won’t be as fast as a 5.56 NATO M4. Shooting moose and bear is another story, in which case lugging around a SCAR-H makes perfect sense for someone like yourself.
F2S and JPB: I think what we need is a damn randomized control trial of 10-20 FN SCAR-H vs. whatever newest iteration of a 16" inch chrome lined KAC SR-25 16" carbine using KAC 20 round steel magazines (no PMAGs). We’ll fire strictly M80 ball from Winchester or Federal, along with 175 grain SMKs (M118LR). Put 5000 rounds through each gun under various conditions (dirt, snow/ice, mud, sand) with generous amounts of a modern lubricant (like Slip 2000 EWL, not plain CLP) and see who wins. I would want the trial overseen by someone like the LAV, Ken Hackathorn or the like, who can fish out the B.S. and who possesses a fair degree of technical knowledge on guns.
Until that time, I, as a civilian, lack sufficient evidence to say the SCAR-H is superior to the latest ECC SR-25 16" carbine or vice versa. It is my personal opinion that the SCAR would probably win out in terms of reliability. I base my opinion on it’s operating system alone (piston vs. DI) and magazine design (partially FAL style vs. AR-10). The SR-25 would win the accuracy contest out to 800 yards since it lacks a large reciprocating mass besides the bolt carrier. My opinion of course, means squat until I see this trial carried out.
Pat (great looking SCAR),
What barrel length is that and is it your preferred length? I know the TX Rangers asked for Mark to make them the PredatOBRs in 14.5" as they said they wanted a 7.62 for 300yd engagements.
Do you have a cartridge that you feel comfortable house clearing with?
The Nightforce which reticle did you go with? Like it?
Until the SR-25 EMC and LMT MWS came out I wouldn’t have trusted a .308 AR that didn’t come on an H&H, Telko, Sendra or Specialty Arms receiver.
I’d have a lot of confidence in either the KAC or SCAR-H, because I know SME’s that have sold virtually every AR they had to get a couple of the high quality .308’s on the market.
For them it was the right tool, but I’m a sissy, so I run 5.5 pound colt commandos and krinks.
Its a 16 inch gun it looks shorter because I have the rail extension. I like to hold further out ont he handguard. I think this length is about rigth for my needs.
I use 2 loads for work. For normal situations where I want to minimize over penetration I use Horndays 155 grain Amax tap which penetrates 15 inches in gelatine. For critters and the possible felony stop around vehicles I have Horndays 165 grain barrier Tap round. Which is basically an interbond bullet commonly used in hunting.
I had the Nightforce on a another gun and moved it over its the low velocity reticle which matches up perfectly with my 155 grain amax load.
Pat
Guys, not to speak for Jack, but I in no way took his post as pissing on FN. Infact, a quick search should find you several post by Jack where he states the Mk17 is a solid choice for a battle rifle role. Like Al-POPO, I sometimes carry my 17 CQC on patrol. It handles extremely well for a 7.62x51. It kicks more no doubt, but if you man up and drive the rifle accordingly, it is nothing that I feel would be detrimental in a CQC enviroment. Mine is shorter, so it does have a huge bark indoors, I’ll trade that bark for having an extremely handy, lightweight rifle to deal with potential barrier problems. We are fortunate in the large selection of GTG practical 762 rifles on the market. If I had the money, no doubt I’d have the KAC too as a buddy has a KAC EM Carbine and it is ungodly accurate. My SCAR, like most all SCAR 17s is 1-3 MOA depending on ammo. The KAC my buddy has, over time has turned in some amazing groups.
To the OP: Buy a quality 556 M4 and support items. Take the cost difference from the 17 and take a class from a well vetted instructor. No matter what your background, you’ll gain more in the long run via knowledge than just buying a 17 now.
If you can handle the additional cost of a superior carbine, as the SCAR17s , by all means , try to get one now. By SUPERIOR, I do mean, easier to clean, acurate enough, for longer range … one shot stops. I am not discounting the lethality of a fine M-4 . I have respect for the peole who have trained with all Sporting Utility Rifles . Knowing that I have 17-S. & I bought it when it was reasonable, and Larry V. TOLD ME … from T.V. THAT HE LIKES IT… SOLD ME… I’m tellin’ ya’ I’d rather be armed with my Scar 17 & 10 loaded mags; than my M-4 with the same amt. of loaded ammo. I’ll take my big Apple over my medium Orange any-Day.
YOU LAST TWO GUYS ; are sticking to your guns , which were a compromse, and national icon… in 1975. THE .5.56 IS A POODLE POPPER. I’m not a rookie. NEITHER was Jeff Cooper; AND I’LL FOLLOW HIS BELIEFS & EXPERTISE… and let you dream ABOUT SAVING UP… THIS YEAR … TO FIND A – Scar17s. When you shoot one , with some practice, get back to me. P.S YOU BOTH… WANT TO OVER RIDE SOMEONE NEW… I’ m right , JEFF COOPER IS RIGHT. THE END.
Just my two cents but switching between regular and all caps makes your posts dificult to read. Also with a post count of six you may not want to tell others your word is gospel.
