SBR confusion?

General Firearms NFA
1

So I’ve been doing a bunch of research on here and reading all the threads I can find on what all it takes to register a stripped lower as an SBR, including this thread from scottyryan. From everything I could read, it looked like all I had to do was get my lower stamped with my name and home town, then send off Form-1, a check for $200, and wait six to eight months for my tax-stamp. (I’m not married, and don’t have kids, so I have no interest in creating a trust).

One thing I was still unclear on was whether or not I could switch uppers to different sizes without having to go through any more paperwork or notifying ATF.

So yesterday a Federal Agent buddy of mine hooked me up with the local ATF Agent where I live so we could discuss what all was involved. He told me the following:
[b]

  1. Getting the lower stamped with your name and hometown is not necessary. He had never heard of that, and then he called three other ATF Agents on the phone while I was sitting there with him, and they had never heard of it either. All of them have privately owned SBR’s of their own.

  2. Switching uppers and different barrel lengths is a non-issue as long as you’re not going shorter than what you put on your Form-1. However, he did recommend notifying ATF when you do this just to “cover your ass” (his words). [/b]

He then gave me the phone number of a guy in the Anchorage ATF Field Office who was in charge of “Industrial Operations.” He said that he would be able to give me some more in-depth answers to my questions. So I called this guy, and he gave me some conflicting answers. He said:

[b]1) Stamping your lower with your name and hometown is only necessary if you plan on eventually selling the SBR.

  1. Your barrel MUST be serialized. The numbers must be 1/8th of an inch tall, and 10 thousandths of an inch deep.

  2. If you switch uppers, the new barrel must also be serialized, and a NEW TAX STAMP is needed. So I asked him, “does that mean I can’t switch uppers without getting a new tax stamp?” and his answer was: “Exactly.” [/b]

So now I have different ATF Agents telling me different things, and M4C telling me even more different things. Needless to say, I’m confused out of my mind, and don’t know what the Hell to believe.

2

The ATF agents you need to talk to are the ones in the NFA branch. They are the final word.

As far as engraving goes, all evidence I have seen points to yes it is required. Someone here even posted a written letter from the NFA branch stating it as a requirement. Serializing the barrel is something I haven’t heard. I do think its an approved location for engraving your personal info though.

If you don’t want the engraving maybe consider a factory SBR.

ETA; As far as switching uppers, as long as you can return it to the configuration stated on your paperwork you’re GTG.

3

If you are building the rifle from a stripped lower, you have to engrave your name, city, state on the receiver. The law is crystal clear on that.

Once you have a tax stamp, regardless of what barrel length or caliber you put on the Form 1, you can put any upper or any caliber you want on the lower as long as you “retain control” of the parts necessary to return it to its registered configuration. The new upper can be any length, longer or shorter. Doesn’t matter. If you decide to make a permanent change, you only need to send the NFA a letter notifying them of the change. There’s no form, no permission required. You might get an acknowledgement letter from them a year or so later.

You got a massive dose of stupid, ignorant advice. You only have to read the NFA to see that the people you talked to are absolutely clueless. Hell, 15 minutes reading the NFA FAQ on the ATF website will demonstrate that to you.

Ever sit down and chat with a cop in your town about what he believes the concealed carry laws are? Ever know many that could get it right?

“Serialize the barrel”…what utter horseshit.

4

^ This is the best answer.

Sent from my ZTE V768 using Tapatalk 2

5

Can you point to where in the NFA it says that? I’m looking on my iPhone on Chapter 7, but I’m not seeing anything specific. I’d like to email that to the ATF agent I spoke with, because he seemed 110% confident that it was unnecessary.

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-7.pdf

6

This is why YOU NEVER ask BATFE field agents about this stuff. Most of them are stupid and don’t even know their own regulations and many have little real exposure to firearms.

Everything you asked about is clearly discussed on the main BATFE NFA Faqs page.

7

He’s an idiot and I wouldn’t even waste my time if I were you. I can’t imagine anything more fruitless than trying to educate a simple government functionary.

Look at 6.2.1 in the NFA handbook. The “maker” that they’re referring to is you, the person that is “making” the SBR from an existing firearm. As opposed to the “manufacturer”, who is the company that created the receiver in the first place. Then look at the engraving requirements later on. You have to engrave your name, city, state in a visible place in letters at least 1/16th inch tall and .003 inches deep. You don’t have to engrave a serial number because the original mfgr of the receiver has already done that. And do note that, while in recent years it was ok to engrave your first initial and last name, lately the NFA has been requiring full first name, not initial, when filling out box 4H on the Form 1. Postal abbreviation for your state is still OK.

Note that it is permissible to engrave that stuff on the barrel, or on the upper receiver, but that of course makes no sense because if you decide to put a different upper on it at some later point, that barrel would have to be engraved too. If you have multiple short barrel uppers in different barrel lengths and/or different calibers, all of them would have to be engraved. Much simpler to just engrave the one receiver.

Download the NFA handbook and read it. http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/index.html

And have a look at the SBR FAQ. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html

8

The barrel, frame or receiver must be marked with the name of the entity ‘making’ the SBR, and the city and state. In this case, that’s you.


2) Switching uppers and different barrel lengths is a non-issue as long as you’re not going shorter than what you put on your Form-1. However, he did recommend notifying ATF when you do this just to “cover your ass” (his words).

You can go as short as you want, and there is no requirement to notify anyone.

He then gave me the phone number of a guy in the Anchorage ATF Field Office who was in charge of “Industrial Operations.” He said that he would be able to give me some more in-depth answers to my questions. So I called this guy, and he gave me some conflicting answers. He said:

1) Stamping your lower with your name and hometown is only necessary if you plan on eventually selling the SBR.

It’s silly, but it’s the law. You must stamp your name (or the entity ‘making’ the SBR) on the barrel, frame or receiver, whether you sell it or not.

[b]

  1. Your barrel MUST be serialized. The numbers must be 1/8th of an inch tall, and 10 thousandths of an inch deep.
    [/b]

The barrel, frame, or receiver must be engraved, and the depth requirement is .003 thousandths.

[b]

  1. If you switch uppers, the new barrel must also be serialized, and a NEW TAX STAMP is needed. So I asked him, “does that mean I can’t switch uppers without getting a new tax stamp?” and his answer was: “Exactly.” [/b]

If the barrel is marked, and you switch to a new barrel, then the rifle is unmarked… and an SBR should be marked by the maker. The tax stamp is associated with the lower, however, not the upper, so a new barrel is just that… a new barrel. You do not need a new stamp. The rifle should still be marked by the maker, however.

So now I have different ATF Agents telling me different things, and M4C telling me even more different things. Needless to say, I’m confused out of my mind, and don’t know what the Hell to believe.

During the Crime Bill days, I worked the Olympics at Salt Lake with a couple of weapon enforcement guys. I was excited when I heard who I was assigned to, because I had many compliance questions for them. I was shocked and saddened when I asked gun questions and got the ‘deer in the headlights’ look in return. They told me stories of arrests they had made where the described the ‘offenses’ (which I knew were legal as they were describing it to me), and was shocked… shocked at their tenuous grasp of the law they were tasked to enforce.

Read the advice given here, then verify it by reading the CFR yourself, then find your happy place. Sadly, the last place I would ask questions are those tasked to enforce it.

9

Your buddy’s statement and "information " is full of FAIL.

Complete and utter horseshit, wrong on nearly every count.

Those ATF clowns you talked to need a course in NFA 101.

10

Another reason to refer any inquires from LE / ATF concerning your firearms / NFA items to your attorney.

They’ll set the wayward, ignorant agents straight pretty quickly.

11

That attorney can also help you get them back after they’ve been confiscated.

12

And why would they be confiscated?

13
14

Understood - but if they show up and want to search and seize without a warrant, I’m not gonna stop them…

And my attorney will be asking for more than just the firearms back…

15

Absolutely. Cops, ATF…when in doubt, err on the side of confiscation.

Yeh…good luck with that. I’m pretty confident that the best you could hope for would be to get your guns back, and I suspect the time frame on that would not be to your liking. I’m sure you could push it for damages, but the old question comes up "how much justice can you afford?’

16

Barrel needs to be stamped and serial numbered? Sound the alarm!!! And call the ATF gestapo as no AR manufacturer I know of places this on their weapons. Haha!

17

F-Trooper05, ask any of these guys to put what they’ve told you on ATF letterhead. They won’t. Ask any of them to testify on your behalf in court because you did what they told you to do. They won’t remember having a conversation with you. Their advice is worse than none at all because they’re wrong and their brethren are the ones who would put you behind bars for following it.

18

So what’s your solution then?

And I speak from experience, granted a sample size of one, of asking ATF agents to leave my residence. No confiscation, no arrest, nothing. In fact I never talked to them again, as they could only speak to my attorney and their fishing trip fizzed pretty quickly after that.

19

The solution is that you buy the most justice you can afford. With luck, you’ll get your firearms back in a timely fashion.

I’m sure not every fishing expedition nor every ATF “contact” would result in confiscation.

20

Like what? Damages? You won’t get any money from the government even if you could prove actual damages, which is unlikely. Punitive damages? Not unless you can prove malice on their part. Never happen. You might get the agents in a little trouble if you wrote a “strongly worded letter” to their supervisor, but the concept makes me smile a little. It’s the Federal Government…you’d have to **** up massively to even be noticed by your higher-ups, let alone receive any fallout. And it’s almost impossible to be fired.

I understand your outrage, but the deck is stacked. There is no solution. Be happy if they turn tail, leave, and don’t return. If they do get a warrant and confiscate your guns, be happy if you get them back. That’s almost certainly going to be the best you can expect.