I installed a Geissele SSA in my Noveske N4 awhile back. I can’t recall if the safety did this before the trigger change however.
My safety seems to have what I’ll call a “limbo” position. After I charge and dry fire the rifle, I can’t move the safety towards safe but not all the way. While in this position, I can charge the rifle and with enough pressure on the trigger, dry fire the weapon. This returns the selector from “limbo” to fire position. Other than that, the rifle function checks just fine.
Any ideas?
I did remove the safety and reinstall but it still has that “limbo” position.
I do have a new selector, pin, and spring on order to try. Just wondering if anyone might have any ideas.
No worries, your rifle is functioning exactly how it’s supposed to. Like the above poster stated, you can’t put the weapon on safe with the hammer dropped.
Thanks. My other N4 upper sits atop a Rock River lower (I know…blasphemy); it was a change after my first buy – before I read the “Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!” thread. It has a Geissele SSA as well, and the safety doesn’t operate in the manner mentioned above. That’s what led me to pose the question here.
Just following up with what I discovered after parts arrived.
I had ordered a new detent, detent spring, a DPMS safety, and a RRA safety. The DPMS is the same as the rifle currently has. The RRA is what my other rifle has. The RRA safety will spring back to FIRE/SEMI when attempting to put the rifle on safe with the hammer dropped.
I installed the new detent and new detent spring with the new DPMS safety, and it operated with the same “limbo” position mentioned in the first post.
Removing the DPMS safety and installing the RRA, it performs as it does on my other rifle. Attempting to safe the weapon with a dropped hammer will cause the safety to spring back to FIRE/SEMI.
I’m probably over-analyzing this and being totally paranoid. However, I’m just trying to avoid a scenario where I think I’ve made the rifle safe when it is in fact not.
Or you can call us (Battle Arms), and we will give you an earful of the dynamics of different parts of various tolerances working as a system, and how the tolerances can affect one another We took steps to make our selectors more tolerant of out of spec parts and receivers, but not a lot of people pay attention to the effect and result of parts, made by different manufacturers with different tolerances, can have when they’re mixed and used on receivers of various tolerances themselves.
With a JARD trigger (one of the variations) it will allow the safety to rotate to Safe even with the hammer forward. What’s wrong with that? Nothing, except it’s different from how the AR has always worked. HK roller locked weapons and G36 (probably UMP too), FAL, HK and other platforms allow the selector to rotate back and forth irrespective of the position of the hammer.
AR is actually kind of rare that you cannot safe the weapon unless the hammer is cocked (the precedents being the 1911 and Browning HiPower, may be others) I can’t imagine it was designed to do this, nevertheless that’s how it is and we’re used to it shrug
It’s more of an issue of me not being familiar with the different tolerances of different manufacturers as stated by Duffy.
If looking at just the lower with the hammer forward, the DPMS safety can be set to the position shown in the second picture. Next would be cocking the trigger. The safety remains in the position of the second picture. Now pulling the trigger, there is resistance that feels like the weapon is on safe. With enough pressure on the trigger, the selector will move to fire, and the hammer will fall. The pressure placed on the trigger for this to occur is more than what is required to manipulate the trigger normally.
The selector is transitioning from the flat to the round part of the safety in its contact of the rear portion of the trigger. In effect it is teetering at that transition point. As pressure is applied, the rear of the trigger will force the selector to roll into fire.
With my other rifle that has the RRA selector, I was used to it not staying at that position. When moving the RRA selector to the position shown in the second picture, it automatically springs back to fire position. The DPMS selector, however, will remain in the position shown in the second picture. As Duffy said, different manufacturers and different tolerances.
If I’m not explaining it well enough, I’ll get my brother’s rifle from him tomorrow and see if I can get some video up to show what is happening. Both of my rifles now have the RRA selector. I think his has a DPMS selector
Not driving anyone crazy, but you got definitive answers and concurrance from the rifle maker, trigger maker, and selector maker. It doesn’t get better than that. I wouldn’t bother with anything else and I’d quit worrying about and testing it.
I like threads like this and am happy to contribute what knowledge we have in the subject, because it can serve as PSA and a reminder to users that their weapon has parts, it’s possible that not all of which were made under one roof, and not all of them have the same tolerances.
When a part is replaced and something seems to go wrong, it’s not always the new part that you just put in
When the hammer is cocked, it lowers the rear extension of the trigger, which clears round portion of the selector’s center and allows it to rotate. When the hammer if forward, the rear extension of the trigger is raised and this prevents the selector from being rotated to Safe, if you can force the selector to rotate to Safe while the hammer is forward (you shouldn’t be able to do that), there’s something wrong.
As to the selector springing back, as you know the selector itself isn’t spring loaded, the detent is. The action you’re describing is the detent sitting on the edge of the detent hole, the pressure is taken off the lever, the detent goes back inside its cone-shaped hole, thus making it feel like the selector was spring loaded.
If the detent is riding completely on the detent groove, there it will stay until told otherwise
It’s important to note that the rifle can fire if the selector is not completely in the safe position. Anywhere but completely in the safe position is OFF SAFE.
We took steps to make our selectors more tolerant of out of spec parts and receivers, but not a lot of people pay attention to the effect and result of parts, made by different manufacturers with different tolerances, can have when they’re mixed and used on receivers of various tolerances themselves.
