S&W M&P 15 VTAC II

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

Alright guys,

I performed a search, with the orange button, and it seems only a minor review, or discussion, was held about the new S&W M&P 15 VTAC II.  

Looking at the specs and watching a couple videos of Kyle Lamb with the rifle, it seems S&W, along with VTAC, have changed some things up compared to their previous VTAC rifle.  The new features and specs, copied from S&W, are pasted below.

Mid-Length System (The new “cat’s meow?”)

  • Results in lower recoil and better accuracy providing higher 2nd shot hit probability
    16″ Barrel (Looks to maybe be a lightweight profile?)

  • 1 in 8″ twist (Increased durability and fast enough to stabalize heavy ammunition)

  • 4150 CMV Steel (Definitely an upgrade from their previous 4140 steel.)

  • 5R Rifling (Something new to non-custom ARs with an established past of accuracy. Helps with durability and maintenance of the barrel as well.)

  • Melonite® Finish (Excellent durability and hardness.)
    Chromed-Lined Bolt Carrier and Gas Key
    VTAC®/Troy™ 13″ Extreme TRX Hand Guard (Nice set of rails.)

  • Two 2″ Adjustable Picatinny-Style Rails

  • Improved shooting ergonomics

  • Reduced heat transfer and quicker target acquisition with this free-floating rail

  • Extremely light weight and rigid allowing quicker target-to-target transitions
    Patent-Pending, Smith & Wesson Enhanced Flash Hider (Not sure about this? Maybe it’s good. Dunno.)

  • Reduces flash signature significantly

  • Directs gases and sound forward and away from the shooters

  • Eliminates secondary flash/streak
    Geissele® Super V Trigger (Sweet! Nice feature to come standard.)

  • Quick reset

  • Light trigger

  • No set screws to come loose when cleaning or firing

    Now, some of the stuff doesn’t matter to the rifle, but is nice to have.

    S&W has made some upgrades. They are now using 4150 CMV barrel steel, as compared to their older 4140, that has a 1:8 5R rifling finished in Melonite. Now that is interesting. I would like to know whom’s blanks they were using, but it is nice to see they upgraded to 4150CMV. It’s also excellent to note they are using 5R rifling, which is used in modern sniper rifle systems. 5R rifling generally reduces stress and deformation on the bullet itself, inherently making it more accurate in flight. Then we have Melonite. Now, I am no expert, but it seems a 4150 CMV barrel, finished in Melonite, orgied with a 1:8 twist and 5R rifling, would lend itself to be extremely rugged, accurate, and easy to maintain. Now, if we could just get some inside info and find out if they do little mil-spec things like MPI their bolts and barrels, HP their barrels, shot peen, and the such, since their info appears to be “proprietary.”

    Another note, since S&W now machines their own uppers and lowers in house, with their extensive machining past and history, could the quality, and mating, of the two halves be superb as well? I don’t currently own a S&W M&P 15 because I was always led to believe they were inferior weapons. However, with their recent upgrades, are they now competing with the mid, to “top shelf”, companies?

    At the price point, You get a nice, and light, $180 rail system, a superior, over stock, $240 Geissele trigger, a VLTOR collapsible stock, and a few other lil nice gadgets, to include a superb VTAC 2 point sling.

    Final thoughts, it seems S&W and VTAC are trying to appeal, at a good pricepoint of $1600 complete, to enter into the market with an extremely lightweight, 6.28 lbs, extremely durable, accurate, and top shelf weapon system.

    Please do not scorn me, this is just a simple observation from the spec sheet on paper. I am in the market for an AR for Police Patrol, among other things, and just happen to come across this. I was actually avoiding S&W because of my thoughts I previously had for their AR lineup. I was watching a VTAC video and saw a video of Kyle Lamb talking about it. Kind of got me wondering. Should this be a rifle I should be considering heavily at this price point?

    Please open this thread up for discussion about this particular AR, the new upgrades, and your thoughts about it, along with S&W as a “top shelf” contender as a “go to” and training rifle. Thanks guys.

More information about 5R rifling can be found at http://www.tcarms.com/technology/5r_rifling.php

2

Dude, that reads like a brochure/fanboy centric ramble.
(ETA, oops, it’s from S&Ws website, sorry, missed that)
Yeah, it’s a decent gun, and if you like it, get it; but at the end of the day, it’s a decent, light gun, just like many others.

IMO, $1950 MSRP seems a little high for what you’re getting.

3

The street price will still likely be above a 6720 with an aimpoint pro and decent light. Or same rifle with a vtac rail and AP pro.

4

Failure2Stop,

Thanks for your input.  Yea, haha, it does seem like that, but was just reading and pointing facts from their previous stuff... was just posting it seems like a nice weapon and seems they are making some improvements.  Still don't like the fact they won't publicly state their QC/QA procedures and what tests are performed on their weapon systems.  It would make it easier on us to make an informed decision.

Thanks again.
5

Yeah, I’m not in a position to say it’s bad, just that I don’t think I’d shell out the cake for it.
Other options with stuff I like better for similar $$.

6

Spooky,

Thanks for your input. Yea, I was thinking about that too… I can get a new model LE6920 for $985, add an Aimpoint PRO for $400, a 7" VTAC TRX Extreme Rail, for comparison reason, for $155, and a BattleComp 2.0 for $165. Comes out to roughly, about $1650, what the VTAC II runs on the street… Really only thing missing is the trigger, but i have an optic figured in. Just looked, some more Colt LE6920 just went available for $985… To pull the trigger or not. Hrmmm…

7

Failure2Stop,

Not that I am questioning you, but I am sincerely asking what would you that you would like better, if you don’t mind me asking? I am just learning here. Thanks.

8

Can’t speak much more on M&P15’s but it does indeed seem they’re upping their game. Setup sounds good… I wonder about the price. Maybe go add up what it would cost to buy it in two or more parts to see what gets shaved. That trigger does tack on a couple.

So…

BCM BFH 16" Mid Length (LIGHT WEIGHT) Upper Receiver Group w/ VTAC TRX 11" Handguard about $730 (I know, I put 11" but 13 isn’t much more I believe.)
Note: BFH (Hammer forged barrels) are +$100 so this 100 is optional.

BCM Blemished Lower w/ basic M4 furnishings About $270

Most Geissele triggers run about $250 or a bit less

Then the bolt groups are typically $130

All that comes to ~about $1,380, maybe about 50 more if your lower isn’t blemished and perhaps another bit if you have a more expensive stock and grip kit.

Then you probably get some BUIS which run about 100 for a magpul set, and a bit over 200 for iron. So goes…

about $1,480~$1,580 + optic of choice.

Just a general sum up… + tax probably.

9

Casull,

Yea that sounds about right.  So what we've figured out is we can build, with a quality we know, to come out about even with the new VTAC II.  Either with the Colt Carbine System or a BCM, or equivalent, Carbine or Mid Length System.  

 However, there is also a peace of mind knowing what tests have been done on the weapons, inspections, and little, but important, features are known.
10

Not a problem in the slightest.
Big question: what do you want to do with it?
What features do you give more weight than others?
I ask because my wants are not necessarily yours.

But:
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=16rh-556&cat=123&page=1&search=&since=&status=&title=
Just something to think about.

11

Whew wee that’s purty.

What do I want to do with it? I’m a LEO and want to use it for patrol at work, professional training courses, and for anything else I want… Something probably rather lightweight, accurate, and quality.

What features do I give more weight to? Well finish really isn’t all that important to me. When I worked in the trades, journeymen were always able to tell the newbies by his tools… If they were bright, shiny, and clean, that mean’t he hadn’t done much work or he’s scared to do work… :secret: Hehe… I like a dirty (worn) weapon on the outside, but the inside, the heart of the weapon cleaned, lubricated, and tuned for warfare. I want a quality/accurate barrel, quality bcg, combat quality trigger, and the small details of workmanship (pride) quality matter greatly to me… Such as taper FSB pins, finish under FSB, proper twist on barrel, shot peened and MPI bolt/barrel, proper stress (HP) tests completed, you know the little stuff… Another analogy for you… In the trades, you could tell a professional by the small things he done, not necessarily because he had to, but because he had pride in his work. i.e… making sure all the screw heads are facing the same direction, making sure all your pipe was bent and aligned properly, you know taking the extra step to make sure it was done with quality… To me, that means a lot. I saw “the list” by Rob_S. Which is awesome by the way.

So there you have it. Two shot questions answered. You know I probably could have kept going, but you get the idea…

12

https://danieldefense.com/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v7-lw.html

Throws a whole lotta gun into a nice package.

Really though, I’ve just switched back to a 6920 with a Centurion FSB cut rail and it gets a whole lotta work done even out to extended range.

I am a big fan of the 6720 as well.

If testing and proven fitness are the top of your requirements I recommend Colt, DD, and LMT complete weapons or complete uppers, and I have been happy with the performance of my BCMs as well.
If you want to step up the precision requirement, Noveske barrels as well as the SS BCM barrels seem to do it without overly sacrificing robustness or heavier firing schedules.

Really though, if you have a 2 MOA combination, you will be able to reach out to the ragged edge of 5.56 effectiveness.

13

I’d much rather new people pick up the VTAC-II over some of the gems they buy instead. I have no doubt I can keep building my own weapons that are nearly identical for less, but it’s a pretty decent starting rifle for somebody at a loss for decent components who refuses to see a 6920/6720 as a viable option.

14

Llama,

Thanks for chiming in! I very much agree with your statement.

15

Since your LEO you can probably knock about $600 off that MSRP, and get one around $13xx from an LEO dealer. Now at about $1400 how does it compare to the competition? Probably pretty damn well.

Having said that I’m probably buying a BCM middy, because I want a specific rail at a specific length. It’ll most likely cost me more than the VTac 2 to have the trigger, BUIS, and extra bonuses in the long run.

16

Isn’t this basically the same thing as a S&W Sport just with added accessories and the trigger? No S&W AR is worth buying over the real top shelf brands such as BCM and Colt, especially when they are priced similar. You’d likely pay more for the S&W in most cases just because they are another brand that prey on people who have no firearms knowledge.

IMO, S&W has upped their game but I’d still categorize them with someone like Spikes Tactical. There is just no logic behind purchasing a S&W that’s not even true mil-spec for the same or more than say, a Noveske. :no:

Why are we even having this discussion? S&W isn’t part of the cool club! :big_boss:

17

DJMorris,

Thanks for stopping by.  True, but reality is "most" people do not make informed decisions when buying weapon systems and go with what they know.  They know S&W is an American company with a long, established, lineage in the handguns and revolvers industry.  I believe the same people believe that truth carries over with their rifle.  To be fair, they will probably not see the benefits others, "the cool club", would have.  Their arguments will be, I've never had a problem, it shoots accurate, does what I want it to, and it has a lifetime warranty.  

 However, I can say I at least like the way they're headed...  Seems like they're starting to utilize the mil-spec fans components and procedures.   Hell, they may be good to go as far as we know.  Some may be surprised if S&W released information about the tests and inspections their AR systems go through.  S&W shares very little with those, us, that seem to care.  I however, will stick with those I know, especially if they're in the same price point and of said quality.
18

Wa22ioR-

I might be misreading your intent here.
Are you considering purchasing this carbine or is this just a conversation about it?

No problem either way.

19

I’m glad you can have a real discussion about the rifles without making claims like “My S&W xxx will outshoot your Colt any day because I made a bad investment that I need to feel good about!!!”. :sarcastic: (I see this all too often)

Seriously though is there a reason that S&W uses the 1/8 over 1/7 twist ratio? I’m doubting that they know something HK, BCM, Colt, LMT, etc doesn’t know.

I think my main concern in purchasing anything other than the S&W Sport (it’s at least priced right) is that their QC may not be up to par. I know there is alot of M&P fans around these parts but I have seen way too many issues first hand with all of S&W semiauto handguns including the M&P. Typically if a company is pumping out low end products (the newer SD line and Sigma’s come to mind), their “high end” products are not going to be drastically better in the real world, at least in my experiences.

If you put revolvers aside, Smith & Wesson has never really made that great of a handgun at all up until the M&P, which has still had more problems than a math book… people have just given 'em a pass it seems.

Let’s be realistic: Smith & Wesson has made their name from LEO using the Model 10 and “Bubba” who thinks Ruger and S&W are the best firearm manufacturers because it says “Made in the USA” (should be a red flag in the handgun world)

I don’t mean to go too far off topic with handguns, etc but my overall feelings are that S&W makes some high quality civilian level firearms but for the price of their supposed higher end duty guns you can usually buy one from a strictly top shelf manufacturer who have very strict QC guidelines to follow.

(despite this I have been considering picking up an M&P as it seems they have worked out some of the growing pains and for $450’ish it’s priced right)

20

Failure2Stop

Yea no problem, the answer is both. I think like all of the specs and upgrades the weapon system has along with the S&W known CS. However, I just can’t get past the idea they may be hiding the whole “little things” that are important to me and speak on the quality and craftsmanship of their work… I care about properly MPI and HP tested barrels. I care about MPI and SHot Peened bolts. I care about using tapered pins in the FSB with finish under the FSB or gas block. I care about properly staked end plates and carrier gas keys. It’s the little things I care about that S&W won’t talk about and considers it “proprietary.” To be honest, if I could get some facts from them or from someone that has the new VTAC II that could post pictures of the items I care about, I would probably buy one because it has all the stuff I already want in a package at a reasonable price point of just less that $1600. S&W has upped their game machining their own 7075 T6 receviers, and using 4150 CMV 5R rifling barrels with 1:8 twist.

Being a reputable company, I don't see them them cutting corners and hiding it under the "proprietary" label, but I just don't take a lot of chances, especially with a weapon system that I will come to depend on and trust with my life.

Thanks for your question, hope this clarifies it a little.