I checked one out at my local gunshop a couple of weeks ago and I was really impressed with the fit and finish of the rifle. After doing some checking around, my understanding is that they are made by CMT (Stag) for S&W. I’ve heard pretty much nothing but good stuff concerning Stag and was wondering what you fine AR connoisseurs have to say about this fairly new AR. Some points regarding the rifle:
Comes with Troy Industries front and rear BUIS
Flat top with rails
6 position collapsible stock
Gunshop was selling for roughly $1300
Finish was impeccable (yeah, yeah, it’s a “tool”, so who is supposed to care about finish… Actually, I do… :))
Is this a good rifle and is the price a good deal?
I’ve only seen 1 in person and it was at the local Sportsman Warehouse. It was definately nicer than the Bushmaster and Armalie that they had there. They were definately overcharging there for it. They wanted $1100+ tax for the non optics version. I think it would be good for a general purpose AR or for plinking. I am not an “expert” though in all matters AR.
I traded for a M&P-15, the standard model, about two months ago. I’ve had a 20" Colt HBar since the mid-80’s (my old Highpower days) but didn’t really know much about AR’s until reading on this and other sites. I’ve certainly learned a number of things since getting my SW. Personal observations on my M&P:
Pro:
Excellent fit and finish. Everything seems to fit nice and snug.
Shot well, but haven’t gotten to shoot it that much so far (200-300 rounds).
Con:
Bolt carrier not staked properly, at least from everything I have read and seen. It is definitely different than my 20+ year old Colt. I believe this is easily fixable though and am looking into it.
I wasn’t really looking for an M-4 style AR at the time but it was such a darn good trade I couldn’t pass it up. Now I’m glad I didn’t. As an earlier post said, I’m no expert on AR stuff but hope this helps.
My take is pretty straightforward and simple. When comparing like models (apples to apples), the Stag has an MSRP of $949 while the identical S&W has an MSRP of $1200. Based on that alone, I think the choice would be pretty clear for me.
In the case of the flattop model with rear BUIS, the price difference goes from $925 for the Stag to $1300 for the S&W, increasing the gap by another $125. While the S&W comes with the Troy sight and the Stag comes with the ARMS, I don’t see the where the additional $125 went.
Can anyone say what the extra cost of the S&W is for?
Since they are both made by Stag I would get the stag. I know I know they still lack M4 ramps, standard 1/7 barrels and 4150 steel but my two stags work very well. Since they were my only factory complete AR’s I don’t think I will be getting rid of them because they lack few things
Brand recognition? I know it’s not always the case w/ ARs by any means, but that is probably one example of paying of the extra for a S&W over the Stag. If it weren’t for the internet I wouldn’t know about Stag, but I know S&W. Same reason Chevy Colorados will outsell Izuzu i280s this year, even though they’re the same truck.
I agree with you. I actually had a discussion on another board with a guy who was bound and determined to pay $200 more for the S&W just because it was an S&W. I don’t get it, but oh well.
The S&W weapon is excellent and has the best BUIS’s on it available. If you have a thing for the S&W name, then go for it. If the name doesn’t matter, I will tell you that you can build it for less.
If you do decide to get it, make sure to check the carrier key for staking.
The problem is that most dealers are biased in some way or get better pricing on one or the other so their final retail price gets skewed. For example, if a dealer sells a boat load of S&W pistols they’ll likely be a “master dealer” and in turn get better wholesale pricing on the S&W than they will on a Stag.
Makes me wish I had picked up copies of the dealer price sheets for both when I was at SHOT.
They way I compared the Stag to the S&W was that they were roughly comparable when taking into consideration that the S&W came with both front and rear Troy BUIS’s and quad rail. When you add those items to the stock Stag, then the final prices end up very close.
One of these two will definitely be my next AR purchase. I’m leaning towards the S&W only because it’s “complete” right out of the box. (complete as far as quad rail and BUIS’s already included, which I want.)
I’ll have a chance to check them both out this weekend at a local gunshow*
*Rob, if you feel brave enough to drive into Miami, it’s being held at the Tamiami Fair Grounds…
4150 is stronger steel for the long haul and what Colt uses too.
According to Bushmaster’s Tech notes it’s also per 4150 Mil-Spec 11595E CMV.
That was just one of a few factors why I picked up the Bushmaster, so far with just under 1,000 rounds and zero hiccups I’m happy with it. The key appeared solid and staked properly, sights were right on out of the box at 25 yds.
The only minor thing was at around 700 plus rounds the Stock nut started to become loose, wasn’t staked, just used the stock wrench to fix and alls well. I haven’t staked it yet and not sure if I will yet, might change the stock soon.
Haven’t been to the range since surgery on my foot, but now my stitches are out and I can limp better, I may hit the range next week. The only real negative I can say at this point about this Bushmaster is that the trigger pull sucks.
I’m putting the “Elkmont Arms Trigger Pull Reduction Kit” in it in the next few days while I wait for my Timney trigger to arrive and see if this helps. Right now the pull is around 8 lbs and I prefer triggers around 4 or less.
I was going to cruise down there on Saturday, but my car will be in the shop. Maybe I’ll go Sunday and take my girlfriend. She’s been to the Palm Beach “redneck” gunshow, I guess I may as well take her to a Miami cuban one.
I hate to piss in anyones cheerios, but I would eat my hat if BM used MIL-B-11595E. There are two types of 4150. Companies like BM, CMMG and a couple others use the cheaper of the two barrel steels. The reason is that MIL-B-11595E is EXTREMELY hard to get and VERY expensive. BM does NOT have a track record for using the “best” of everything.
The real purpose of using MIL-B-11595E is because of its ability to handle heat. If your not shooting FA, then 4140 or 4150 (chrome lined) will work just fine for you IMHO.
I have not got the chance to actually shoot one yet, but all three of the S&W AR’s that I’ve gotten to handle seemed VERY nice. Certainly the equal to my current crop of LMT’s and the Colt’s I’ve owned in the past.
Unless you are into seroius full auto use, the higher carbon content of 4150 isn’t going to make any difference in performance or durability over 4140.
I see no need for 4150 in a rifle that will be a semi auto only.
One thing, since I’ve switch to all 1/7 twist barrels I noticed that all 1/7 Cro-Moly barrels are made with Mil-Spec 11595E spec steel. Either a version of 4150 or CMV.
So if you get a cro-moly 1/7 twist barrel you will have a “4150” barrel. I don’t know why this is but I have never seen a 4140, 1/7 barrel.
Another reason I prefer 4150 is because I run my carbines hard when I practice. When I do certain drills I can get the barrel so hot that I can’t hold the lower receiver or even the railed handguard.
Also, the AR15 has a “safe” sustained rate of fire of 12-15 rounds a minute and there are times when I shoot a lot more than 12-15 rounds a minute and I like to know that when the heat gets up there that my barrel can take it. IMHO, you don’t have to be shooting full auto to really get your barrel hot enough to damage it so I like the extra cushion that my “4150” and CMV barrels provide. While some people may think it might not be “needed” I get it because I can.
Lastly, I don’t really see much money saved by going with a 4140 barrel and since I prefer 1/7 barrels 4140 isn’t really an option anyway.
Actually, I do… :))
