Russia seizes US vehicles in Georgia

General General Discussion
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-seizes-us-vehicles-902432.html

Russia seizes US vehicles

By John Matthew Hall and AP
Tuesday, 19 August 2008

Russian soldiers today held blindfolded Georgian servicemen at gunpoint and commandeered US Humvees in a dramatic sequence of events in Poti, a key Black Sea port.

White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe stated that if Russia has seized any US military equipment in Georgia, it must return it immediately.

In Poti, on the Black Sea, Russian forces blocked access to the naval and commercial ports this morning and towed the missile boat Dioskuria, one of the navy’s most sophisticated vessels, out of sight of observers. A loud explosion was heard minutes later.

Several hours later, an Associated Press photographer saw Russian trucks and armored personnel carriers leaving the port with about 20 blindfolded and handcuffed men riding on them. Port spokesman Eduard Mashevoriani said the men were Georgian soldiers.

The Russians also took with them four Humvees that were at the port awaiting shipment back to the United States after taking part in earlier US-Georgian military exercises.

The deputy head of Russia’s general staff, Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, said in Moscow that Russian forces plan to remain in Poti until a local administration is formed, but did not give further details. He also justified previous seizures of Georgian soldiers as necessary to crack down on soldiers who were “out of any kind of control … acting without command.”

A small column of Russian tanks and armored vehicles left Gori on Tuesday, and a Russian officer said they were heading back to South Ossetia and then Russia. It was the first sign of a Russian pullback of troops from Georgia.

The column, which also apparently included a mobile rocket-launcher, passed the village of Ruisi, outside Gori on the road to South Ossetia on Tuesday afternoon.

Col. Igor Konoshenkov, a Russian military officer, told The Associated Press at the scene the unit was headed for South Ossetia and, ultimately, back to Russia. He gave no timetable for when the unit would reach Russia.

Konoshenkov said it was part of the Russian pullback mandated by a cease-fire that requires both sides to return to positions held before fighting broke out Aug. 7 in South Ossetia, a separatist Georgian province with close ties to Russia.

Elsewhere, Russia they exchanged POWs with Georgia and pulled back some troops from the strategic city of Gori.

It was a day of deeply mixed messages that left the small, war-battered country full of anxiety about whether Russia was aiming for a long-term military presence in Georgia or whether it was just trying to inflict maximum damage before adhering to a EU-brokered cease-fire and troop pullout.

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We, NATO if possible, the U.S. and whatever allies will cooperate if necessary, need to immediately put a stranglehold on Russia economically. As a start: (1) suspend Russia’s de facto membership in the G8; (2) Use Putin’s use of capitalism to rebuild his military against him by freezing the assets of all of his multi-millionaire friends (ex-KGB, mafia, and other nice guys); and (3) freeze any funds of Russian sovereign investment funds until Russia completely withdraws from all internationally recognized Georgian territory.

Putin has sent his message. Are we going to reply with other than stern words?

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Putin has sent his message. Are we going to reply with other than stern words?

Word is Euro nations don’t want to rattle Russia’s cage since they get a lot of their oil from them. I think they will put pressure on us to not get too aggressive and let Russia slide on this one.

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We’ll find out tomorrow. NATO has to respond if they will have any credibility at all. Poland, the Czech Republic and the the Ukraine will force the issue.

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I agree, I fear that those countries, as well as Lithuania and Estonia are next in Russia’s cross-hairs . . .

? Does anyone know whether Russia deployed SAMs in Gerogia?

The word in Air Force circles is “see we really do need as many F-22’s as we said” (John Murtha (D), just two days ago, inserted an increased procurement of F-22’s in an appropriation bill). All branches are wondering where the hell their F-35’s are, especially Naval carrier group commanders who are getting by with F-18E’s but have neither a long range interceptor/carrier BARCAP fighter since the retirement of the F-14D before the stealthy multi-role JSF/F-35 was ready to be fielded. Why? The Penatgon’s quest for cost savings (both Rumsfield and Gates have been in agreement on these decisions).

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I think you are right, although the nations who were hurt the most by the old USSR (Poland, Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, etc) seem to be willing to stand a bit more firm due to bad memories.

Poland, being NATO, is where I see the biggest potential future issue considering the current missile deployment situation as well as what is happening in Georgia.

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Lithuania, Belarus, Estonia are only to be “targeted” if they choose to place nukes in their nations. This has been clearly explained and it makes perfect sense. I’d not want Russian nukes in Cuba, Jamaica, Equador, Mexico, Canada… you get the picture.

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Huh? Seriously, where do you get this stuff? Who said anything about US nukes in the Baltic states?

Do you just make this up as you go?

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The missiles currently being proposed are defensive missiles only. None are nuclear to the best of my knowledge.

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Looks like history kinda repeats itself huh.I seem to remember a little man named Hitler invading small countries claiming its part of his empire.
Now you see cocky bad hat wearing Russians running around the border states shooting stuff.
I personally think its an outright shame that this has been allowed to happen at all.

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“Old Europe” will PUNT on this (as they have on almost everything else) since they get a large amount of the natural gas from Russia and winter is coming on. “New Europe” will try and force the issue best that they can.

Look for the US, UK, Poland and the new europe countries to be on one side against France, Germany, etc.

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They are just a few trucks… If you keep poking that bear, you are going to get bit…

Just my .02

B

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Do you not pay attention to World Events? Or are you simply being facetious?
Tell me: what is Russia’s position on Ukraine, Georgia, Lithuania, the Balkans, etc, etc.? What were the conditions under which they felt threatened enough to TARGET NATIONS?

Hint: the so-called “Missile Defense Shield”. Now I’m not naive enough to believe that this may be the only criteria but that is the PUBLIC statement.

The sad thing is that there is NOTHING new in any of this revolving around the Caucasus; it’s only new to the many who have had up until 8/9 or 8/10 (when they pulled away from the Olympics) little interest.

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I’ll have to find the article but I read last night/this morning that Russia has scoured the country rounding up weaponry and weapons caches they destroyed much of it in Senaki (spelling) - a NATO base - and obviously will take what they wish to remove Georgia’s war-making capacity, if only temporarily.

So despite the neck-tie eating Saakashvili’s screechings about Russia destroying the Black Sea pipeline (nyet), destroying bridges (nyet), raping and pillaging civilians and robbing banks (nyet, nyet and probably nyet), forcing Georgians to work cleaning up (da), shelling towns (nyet).

Lot’s of propaganda coming from Saashkvili & Co. :rolleyes:

The Voice of the White House www.tbrnews.com

Washington, D.C., August 17, 2008: “Someone in my office, loud of voice and dim of wit, asked rhetorically, on Friday last, what Russian wanted by its invasion of Georgia. Like most of the morons working here, they never read the reports that abound, so I took the trouble to tell them what the Russians want.

They want, primarily, to destroy Georgia as a military force, albeit a force that had been entirely controlled and armed by the United States.

They want to locate and destroy the huge stocks of weaponry, to include small arms, light infantry weapons, armored vehicles and trucks supplied to Georgia by the United States.

They have done this. [Exactly]

In short, they want to so destroy Georgia as a military power that it will take ten years to even think about rebuilding

They want to establish a powerful military presence in South Ossetia and Abkhazia so that a US and Isreal-backed Georgia will never dare to attack across their borders again. [Medveded has stated as much]

Another goal of Russia, it is said, is to so ruin the international, and internal, reputation of the unstable Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, that the Georgian people will either depose or kill him. [Can’t blame them here; I expect NATO/US to allow this to happen to deflect blame]

And most of all, the redoubtable Vladimir Putin, who is indeed running the show, wants to show Bush and all the weak but willing east bloc peoples, what can happen to them when they lick the anus of a helpless Washington. [Yes, I distinctly see this]

NATO? A force to reckon with? Not likely.

The Belgian army is better equipped than the American one and neither of them could make a dent on Russia in a land war. [I have no idea where he gets his info on the Belgian army; he’s probably exaggerating for effect. Effect received. China could make a dent in a landwar with Russia but I don’t suppose we could. I don’t think the Brzezinski Plan is an all out land invasion but a long-term isolation from Western capital and a series of terrorist campaigns like we sent their way in both Dagestan and Chechnya - both remniscient of the events in Afghanistan years earlier]

The once mighty and tererrible American military is today a soggy mess, its ground troops basicially ruined by the five year marathon guerrilla combat in Iraq and Afhanistan, and their vaunted armored vehicles and helicopters all in maintainence warehouses in Texas, destroyed by the desert sands of Iraq.

If Russia were to attack Poland or the Ukraine tonight, all Bush could do would be to run into his White House bunker and soil his pants whille Cheney hid in his own Command Bunker and shouted threats into the chemical toilet.

Parenthetically, in England, one of Rupert Murdoch’s sleazy tabloids said that Putin threatened to nuke Poland. Of course, Putin never [exactly] said this and anyone who would believe something written in a Murdoch paper or presented on his rabidly right-wing FOX news should have a lobotomy.

NATO? Trust it not, sir, it shall prove a snare and a delusion, as Patrick Henry said in his brilliant speech to the Virginia Houe of Burgesses.

The balance of the world has shifted in six days, moved by hubris, the stupidity of Washington and Tel Aviv, and the manic president of Georgia.

I told all of this to my airheaded fellow worker and when I was done, they said I was crazy. [Sound familiar?]

Tell people that a huge hurricaine is bearinig down on some part of Florida or the Gulf Coast where they are living and this type immediately sets out to have a picnic on the beach!

God save us all, because Bush surely cannot!” [Neither can McCain or Obama or Clinton if they pursue the same goals…]

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Pictures here

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Do you pay attention to world events or have any real understanding of the region’s history? I’ve yet to find a single post of yours that did not contain some form of gross distortion of the facts. Do you even know how many NATO nations store US nukes? Here’s a hint…less than 5.

The notion that we’re going to put nukes in the Baltic is an utter fabrication on your part. You’re either willfully or ignorantly distorting facts. Either way you’re flat wrong.

A “missile shield” is NOT nuclear…it’s ABM and poses ZERO threat to Russia. Moreover the missile shield ISN’T IN GEORGIA, or in Lithuania, or in Ukraine. So why are they there other than to intimidate their neighbors and Europe? Even still it was a monumentally STUPID move as it proved to all these nations the threat Russia posed and the need for the missile shield. Russia cut off its nose to spite its face and Poland became the first to which Russia said Poland could face Nuclear attack. When you point a gun at someone it’s a threat.

That you refuse to acknowledge the extreme contradiction in that threat doesn’t give you any credibility and totally undermines your argument.

The only propaganda I see is Russia’s and you’ve bought into it hook, line and sinker. I suggest you stick to the content of the OP rather than acting like a shill for thugs.

PS. TBRnews? Now there’s a reputable source :rolleyes: even still I’d learn the difference between NEWS journalism and Opinion pieces (especially ones filled with vulgarity). Likewise please link DIRECTLY to the article/op-ed in question if its something you find relevant.

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This article has absolutely no credibility whatsoever, and fits perfectly with your usual distorted viewpoint. As well, there are more grammatical errors in the article than would be found on any 5th graders work. Please stop pushing such nonsense here. When you do, folks like John and I call you on it because it is inaccurate. And that has led to the last two Georgia threads getting locked early on.

This is a serious issue that is relevant to all of us, and it warrants serious discussion. So, let’s keep the discussions based on fact rather than wild, biased, anti-US speculation. Please.

Thank-you. :slight_smile:

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Interesting weapons. The one with the optical sight, skeletonized stock, and what looks like a suppressor is interesting.

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I think that’s the Vintorez. The Military Channel did a thing on the Spetsnaz recently with LAV as one of the guest weapons specialists and I remember that carbine being mentioned. Google search says it shoots a 9x39mm subsonic round and is used by their sharpshooters.

Maybe someone can confirm.

Edit… Here’s a link to some more info. http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn20-e.htm

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Interesting. IIRC, they employed those at Beslan. I wonder how useful it is, really?