New to the AR world, looking for that 1st purchase - recreation, possibly hunting; no training or tactical application (I hope). And yes, I do just want an AR as something to show off during the holidays or because I think ARs will be banned. Just looking to have some fun, deck out with some crap I’ll probably use a couple times a year, maybe 1000 rounds/year. I’m looking at the Rock River Arms Elite Operator for $1060. I know where it falls on ‘the chart.’ For what you get, it still seems like a great value. I like the buttstock, the grips, the Dominator2 Eotech mount (I plan on getting the XPS2), plus a couple mags and carrying case. Owners generally comment on the accuracy, fit/finish, and customer service.
I’ve been trying to build something quasi-identical to the RRA Elite Operator through BCM or the like, to get something ‘further left’ on the chart and can’t seem to find an option combination that falls within ~$400.
Question/challenge: Is it possible to get closer to the $1K mark keeping a similar configuration? I’m not pinching pennies here, but a $400 savings would almost buy that Eotech XPS2.
I have owned both a RRA and a BCM and currently only own BCM due to the problems I had with RRA. BCM is an excellent value and below is a way to get an outstanding rifle for about the same price as a RRA.
BCM STD 16" in either mid or carbine gas system, BCM BCG and Std charging handle: $570 + shipping
Mid Length or Carbine Length handguards: $20
Magpul MBUS rear sight: $55
Complete BCM lower from G&R w/ MOE stock: $382 + shipping + FFL transfer
Assuming $30 for a FFL transfer fee: Total= $1057 + shipping
I don’t have any first hand experience with a complete DD rifle but I have heard nothing but great things about them and they are very reasonably priced. Read all of the stickies on this site and you will understand why RRA isn’t the best bang for the buck. I hope this helps.
Tim -
Thanks for the reply. I’m looking through the bravocompanyusa site and cannot find the upper mid you reference w/BCM BCG for $570? Is the upper similar to the RRA? Can you post links here or is that frowned on?
I’ve read all the stickies and generally understand the compromise of the RRA; seems like the package is a decent value at ~$1K. That said, I’d rather get dialed into what you’re referencing.
go to bravo’s page, pick any standard $425 barreled upper, there is a drop down menu to add a BCG and CH for a discounted price, bringing it to $570. You can have a complete upper minus the BUIS for under $600 and it will have more desirable mil-spec features than a RRA upper.
The upper looks similar but is different in many ways. The barrel has a 1/7 twist rate and is chrome lined. It is park’d (finished) under the front sight base, and the front sight base is attached with taper pins. The barrel is MPI and high pressure tested as well. The full auto bolt carrier group has a MPI tested bolt with a properly staked gas key. If you look at the chart you will see where RRA is lacking. When I bought a RRA is was thinking that these things didn’t make a difference and I was pissed when I found out I was wrong. I don’t love the rail on the RRA but that is a preference item if you ask me. You can get a comparable full quad rail from Yankee Hill for $120 bucks or so if that is the type of rail you want. I’ll get off my soap box and post the link now, but feel free to ask questions as they come up.
There should be a drop down menu where you can select the BCG and CH then hit update. Also you can read about the features I listed above on the page I linked.
Here’s where my knowledge peaks. That barrel looks perfect, sans the rails. How do you determine what size rails to put on for that specific barrel? I like the ones that come pre-installed with DD, LaRue, etc. Is the rail the only thing that is missing from that barrel? Is anything beyond basic skills involved with doing this? Do you need to remove the barrel to install the rail you choose?
Thanks for replying - still learning. I appreciate it.
do you have stuff to put on the rails or do you anticipate putting things on the rails, because if not, they are a waste of money. There are rails made by Troy and DD etc, that do not require the removal of the barrel at all. Please read all of the sticky threads and knowledge base threads in the technical forum.
Well if you are definitely going to get a rail and have the money to do so now, then I would have it installed by BCM. It is more a matter of having the right tools then it is having the skills. You can watch a video on youtube or somewhere else that will show you exactly how to install a FF quad rail and as long as you have turned a couple of wrenches in your life you should be fine. A mid-length gas system would take a 9" rail without having to replace or shave down your front sight base. And like spamsammich said above, there are options out there that are still a free float design that wouldn’t require the removal of the barrel in order to install the rail. DD Omega seems to be a favorite.
My advice is always to start basic and spend your money on ammo and training until you find out what upgrades work for you. IMO, a red dot type optic is much more important then a FF rail system.
Yes - I plan on using the rails for a front foregrip and Vltor offset light mount. I’ve read every sticky in the AR forum. Just wonder how to choose a rail product for the BCM barrel descibed or if there is a turn-key BCM upper that comes already installed with one for the pricing scenario. Bravocompanyusa doesn’t answer phones so specific question about compatibility, sizing, etc become difficult to get answers to. I understand the one piece rails are generally considered the stronger choice, but I’m not equipped to remove barrels and that adds cost.
To get close to the RRA configuration, looks like the least expensive 16" BCM upper with barrel mounted frt sites and a DD rail is $699 (out of stock) +145 BCM BCG, $382 BCM Lower w/MOE stock, $20 handguards, $30 2 magazines, $40 case, $185 Eotech mount (comes with RRA) totals over $1500.
Look - I realize it’s not apples to apples. But if you’re looking for value, $1060 seems to get you a pretty decent AR15 at a decent price. I haven’t been able to find a true combination of parts via custom build that gets me around the RRA price point in a similar configuration. Still seems like the RRA Elite Operator is a good value if you understand the compromises you’re making.
I just completed my first build. 16 middy BCM upper, BCM BCG, spikes stripped lower, lower parts kit, mil-spec CH, old Colt M16 stock, YHM flip down rear sight, C8 handgurads. I did this for about just under $1000. It’s when you start throwing in DD rails and Eotech’s the price soars. I will probably save and get an optic later on, but I think I built a very solid AR for the $$ spent.
There is a rainbow of uppers available on Bravo’s site. Chose a turnkey option based on your projected need for the rifle. If you want some advice, it sure seems like for what your intended purpose is for the gun, a rail and eotech is way overkill. Hell, a mil-spec rifle seems a bit overkill. The RRA is probably a good fit. For my money, BCM would be the hands down winner. YMMV.
I just got my Noveske Recce 16" midlength upper and FREE lower receiver (“blem” 2nd - but I can’t see anything wrong with it). Shipped and FFL fee = $920.
Add a LPK and MOE stock kit and I have a KICK ASS AR for ~$1100.
The Noveske has a Cold Hammer Forged MP tested 1:7 barrel, MP tested BCG , Forged charging handle…etc etc etc… TOP notch stuff. It also includes a flip up rear sight (one less thing to buy).
You can always add a rail later - at least that is the route I’m taking.
I have the RRA Entry Operator and could not be happier. Have not had any issues with it so far, the gas key is staked properly (contrary to what others say about RRA gas keys), the tolerances are extremely tight, the RRA 2 stage trigger is awesome, can’t beat the price for what you get. I vote RRA.
Again, I don’t think the Eotech needs a separate mount. Personally, I’d rather have BCM quality bolt, hammer forged barrel (big upgrade over RRA), MBUIS and MOE furniture over the RRA rail and stock. What am I missing? Get standard BCM upper vs hammer forged and subtract $100
Or: BCM std upper, swap MI or troy 9" rail instead of MOE handguard (just get stock & grip or just stock) and be back at around same price as RRA with better rail.
You sound like you’re pretty hung up on the rail system while keeping the cost down to below $1000. Allow me to introduce you to the Smith & Wesson M&P 15X. It comes with the excellent Troy flip-up sight and Troy quad-rails, and its quality is absolutely excellent.
You’re not saving yourself any money by going with the cheaper options (like an RRA, or DPMS, or BM). In the end, you’ll end up paying more than what you would have paid if you had gone with the better, slightly more expensive option in the first place.
You don’t NEED a riser for an Eotech but it is nice to have. I have the RRA Dominator 2 mount and it places the reticle of the Eotech sight right on top of the front sight post whereas if I didn’t have the mount, the reticle would sit in line with the front sight post which can be somewhat annoying. It also moves my iron sight picture into the lower 1/3 of the Eotech window so when I look through the iron sights with the Eotech on, I don’t see the reticle which is nice.
I think people get a little too hung up on brand preference (“if it’s not ****, it isn’t worth getting”). Get what fits your budget and TAKE CARE OF IT and you won’t have any problems with any of the reputable manufacturers of AR’s out there.
It has nothing to do with brand preference - it has everything to do with quality. If you can get an AR that’s further to the left of the chart (ie, closer to meeting the requirements outlined in the TDP) for a price that’s similar or cheaper than a rifle placed further to the right, then it makes no sense to buy the one of lesser quality.
In this case, with the options the user desires at a certain price point, the S&W M&P 15X wins. He can get that for $960-$980, and buy a riser for $20.
If he’s willing to give a little, he can get a Daniel Defense XV for $999 and get a Troy rail system for $100 or so from Ebay. He can get a KAC RAS (which includes the forward grip and rail covers) for about $120 from there, as well. But if all the user wants is a forward grip and a place to mount a light, he could get Magpul MOE handguards for about $30.
Honestly, like a previous user said, I think he should focus more on a red-dot sight first and go with the rail system later… the rail system is the cheap part and less important than a good red-dot sight.
And actually having enough money left over to go out and shoot the thing is more important than a red-dot sight and a rail system.
Thank you all for your replies and thoughts - very helpful and appreciated. Will take some more time to research and read. Grateful a forum like this exists - incredible resource. I started talking with my friends who have had Bush/DPMS for a couple years about feedramps last week. Neither had a clue what I was talking about. “Carrier key? Staking what?” I was the newbie two months ago, now they’re asking me questions.
I guess the problem I have with RRA is that the “extras” aren’t that good or worth that much which is why they can throw all those in and still keep the same price point since the QC and materials on the rifle are less than the Colt/BCM etc. Not saying they are bad guns, just seems to be better value in a basic COLT, LMT, BCM, DD, then add a rail later. A $179 Troy TRX rail is light years ahead of the one standard on a RRA.
strambo’s hit the nail on the head with the “extras” from the RRA… the rail and stock are pieces of shit, not worth much… i would rather have plastic handguards and an M4 stock than either of those, for any application.
its hard for some people around here to relate with your thinking… i have a rifle i built for no purpose other than “fun.” it’s KISS and sports a Colt detachable carry handle, LMT fixed front, MOE stock, Vtac handguard… very, very basic peripherals, but all damn solid. i dont know what i have invested in it… probably not more than $1100, yet it’s got a YM chrome NM BCG (denny’s version, they were about as spendy as you could get at the time), WOA barrel, and sun devil billet receivers… as is, she’ll probaby out shoot and out last 90% of factory guns on the market. if i hadn’t spend an extra $200 in fancy BCG and receivers, i’d probably be under a grand.
