Role of the CCWer in Today's Society

General General Discussion
1

After what happened yesterday and all this talk about a ban, let me pose a question for discussion among you guys.

Because of the recent mass shootings, and the political society we live in, do you feel as though your role as a CCWer has expanded?

Let me explain…

I was thinking of this this morning, and remember other discussions on this site about involving yourself in a situation where you have to use your CCW vs. getting your loved ones out of harms way and just “being a good witness”. It seems as if the general consensus is that “being a good witness” was preferred in order to avoid all the legal process that you would most undoubtedly go through. To an extent I agree with that, but I have my own moral beliefs that conflict with just “doing nothing”…

HOWEVER, as of right now, if I am in a public place that allows me to legally carry my weapon and I hear shots fired, I don’t know if I would have any choice but to end the threat as fast as I could. Even if I’m in another room, store in a mall, across a building, ect. I think I would do what I can to prevent another mass shooting…for more reasons than just moral.

I think that the same knee-jerk reaction that people are giving right now in regards to guns can actually be played to our side if we ever find ourselves in a position like this. If you, as a law abiding, responsible, CCWer were to thwart another mass shooting, or even possible mass shooting, I don’t know that there’s a jury in the country that would condemn your actions after what happened yesterday. I believe you would be aquitted, or not even charged with anything, and be called a hero for what you did (although I know that that’s not WHY we would do it).

Think about it, all we have heard in the news lately about guns is that an active shooter killed a bunch of innocent people with evil high capacity, semi-auto weapons. It’s all negativity! And those who aren’t educated on the subject, can be easily swayed to thinking that more gun laws would have an impact on those bent on doing evil.

However, what if in one of these instances there was someone who responded with their own weapon, took down the active shooter, and saved a bunch of lives that day? I think this would be an incredible story that can be cited to prove the merit of personal ownership AND carrying of weapons for the purpose of self defense. As of right now, the former story being told far outweighs the latter story…in fact, I can’t think of one instance where a CCWer was reported to stop an active shooter.

The reason I bring these thoughts up is so that maybe some of you can re-evaluate your role in this society as a CCW holder.

Burke’s quote, “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing” can apply to our political society as well. If we are ever in a situation where we can intervene, yet do nothing, then we are not only allowing evil to triumph, but possibly HELPING close the door on our RIGHT to defend ourselves from enemies, foreign and domestic.

Just food for thought. Discuss.

2

It has happened. The media never reports on it. I get that newsletter about things like this being stopped by gun owner and I had never heard of it before in the media.

Face facts the media twists stories to fit their agenda.

3

There is a lot of truth to that. Of course, if ccw people stopped more, they might not have a choice but to report it. Then again, a lot of ccw people never even shoot their guns, so it would be up to people more like us.

The next problem is, most of these happen at places where we are not allowed to carry, and often times during times and places that people of our mindset avoid.

4

Not me. If and when I carry a weapon, I do so to protect my life from lethal threat. I’m well-trained, but I’m not a cop.

Furthermore, given the absolutely abysmal state of training of the average CCW holder, sending them toward the sound of gunshots is, IMHO, a complete recipe for disaster.

5

I totally agree about the media. I am not fooling myself to believe that the MSM would report something positive about guns…BUT, if a CCWer were to intervene after the shooting had started, the media would HAVE to report something…especially if there had been some fatalities aside from the active shooter. I don’t know, maybe I’m giving too much credit to the media.

As for an “average CCWer” running to the sound of gun fire being a diaster, I would like to think that even an average CCWer would be better trained than these idiots who just start shooting the place up. But that’s my point about guys like us, who actually have training, being the ones that are NEEDED to intervene. And yes, I know we aren’t cops, but as you can see from the recent events, cops can’t be everywhere all the time and a response time of even 3-5 minutes can still mean MULTIPLE victims if there is no intervention.

6

The perpetrator in an active-shooter scenario has the advantage, so his level of training is immaterial. And no, the level of training of the average CCW holder is pretty much a joke. How many of them actually take defensive pistol courses beyond the state-required CCW course that often involves newbies and their first firearm and focuses on safety and self-defense law?

The concept of a CCW holder at the mall drawing his gun, running to the sound of gunshots, killing the perpetrator and being lauded as a hero is a fantasy that I suspect briefly goes through the mind of a lot of CCW holders every time they strap on. IMHO, it’s just that…a fantasy with no basis in reality and trying to act on that fantasy on balance represents a real danger to themselves and others.

7

For starters:

Pearl HS Asst Principal Joel Myrick
Ogden City PD Officer Ken Hammond (understand he is LE, but was off duty)
Jeanne Assam, Security Volunteer at New Life Church in Colorado Springs

8

Dodnt see this reported in the news… Oh no we cant have a gun looking good, looks like the reason he shot himself was because he was facing an armed citizen who had a CCW and was not afraid to use ot to save the life of others.http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

9

Any adult American that encounters one of these mass shootings is honor bound to do the right thing and actively engage the threat whether that’s with a firearm, a fire extinguisher, or a fist. If your family is there, direct them to safety and then go engage the threat. If you have the opportunity to end a situation like this, and you fail to do so, you will never be able to look at yourself in the mirror again or explain to your family why you selfishly let others die when you could have stepped up and done something.

A lot of what’s wrong with this country is that people are obsessed with themselves as an individual. Self sacrifice is what built America. Self sacrafice is what will revive America.

I don’t even like most people but I’ll be damned if I will stand by and let them be slaughtered.

Do the right thing.

10

To quote my mother, “The high road is never the wrong choice.”

11

Doing the right thing includes fulfilling all of your responsibilities as an armed citizen. If you’re going to attempt to enforce the law or view your role as that of Protector of Society, take it seriously. You do. I do. The average CCW holder does not. To say that our violent society expands the role of the CCW holder and enhances our “moral obligation” without expanding training obligation is a bad thing. Far better off using that fire extinguisher or fist.

12

Do you wait to ID your target? If you see a guy with a gun, do you wait to see what he does with it or shoot immediately?

What do you hope another ccw holder does when he turns a corner and sees you with gun drawn, pointing at someone that they might not be able to see?

13

Hate to use movie quotes but it may be applicable here, from the latest spiderman film:

“…if you could do good things for other people, you had a moral obligation to do those things. That’s what at stake here. Not a choice, responsibility.”

14

It is a personal moral obligation not a written one. I disagree that, from a stutory perspective, CCW standards need to be raised. All that does is exclude those that are weaker, poorer, elderly, or infirm.

I completely understand your point re: a poorly trained CCW holder rushing into an active shooter scenario. It’s a piss poor situation but it beats the hell out of doing nothing. While this may not always be the case, most of these mass killers are untrained and undisciplined. Simply taking fire may be enough to stop them from further killing. Getting punched in the face or tackled might disrupt them. Getting pepper sprayed might disrupt them. Getting a chair across the head might disrupt them. They aren’t expecting resistance. Maybe they now begin to engage the CCW holder or the guy that tackled them. Fine, they aren’t shooting helpless women and children anymore. Simply disrupting their plan is going to save lives— maybe not your life— but lives.

The best scenario, one something like this begins, is to kill the bastard outright. The worst scenario is to do nothing and let them go on slaughtering people unhampered. Anything in between is better than doing nothing, gun or no gun.

It has nothing to with enforcing the law or protecting society as a whole. It’s way, way simpler than that— you stop some nut from killing innocent people.

15

Sad that you do have the training, yet would do nothing. Really sad. But it is your choice. Not mine.

Also, this “fantasy” that you scoff at may be a fantasy for some, but is a mindset for others. Everytime you carry, you have to prepare your mind to use the weapon you carry if necessary, otherwise don’t carry at all.

16

Thanks for posting Dave.

This is exactly the whole premise for the thread…aside from the political implications…

17

What gets to me is when someone does act, like the Oregon mall shooting, no one ever knows. They play up the whole bad guy had a gun and leave out that someone stopped him with their own.

18

Purely technical answer here, not a moral or political one.

This type of mass shooting/mass casualty event has historically been committed by people who where either obviously never right or who have snapped. The difference between the good guys and the bad guys will be apparent by their appearance and demeanor. We’re not talking about street thugs here but about absolutely deranged people.

If someone walks into the mall, a school, or a movie theatre with a long gun looking like they just cleared out the Blackhawk catalog you have a real clear answer. I could expand on that for paragraphs on end but you get the idea.

19

I completely get what you are saying. You don’t want some schmuck with a CCW to do something stupid/reckless and mess it up for the rest of us. I get that. Completely.

For me, this discussion is about solving the 20 second problem (life/death) not the 20 minute problem (arrest/medical care) or the 20 hour problem (news coverage/charges) or the 20 month/year problem (politics and legislation). The media, lawyers, and politicians are going to do whatever they are inclined to do anyway. Do let that stop you from doing what’s right.

20

They could/would condemn you because so far, to the best of my knowledge, all of these shootings have occurred in areas restricted by law from CCW.

If I was placed in a situation like you describe, I would like to think I would do the right thing and take down the threat. If doing so involves me serving a few years for possession of a firearm where prohibited, I could live with that knowing I saved people’s lives.