Rock River Evaluation

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

I picked up a Rock River that is a standard M4 configuration with free float barrel. I took it to the range to sight in with my Colt 6940. I noticed the RR had a tight gritty trigger pull and did not shoot nearly as smooth as the Colt. I really do not care for the RR 2 stage trigger group. It even appears cheap looking compared to the Colt or even my Bushmaster.

The one thing I will say about the RR is the upper and lower assemblies are tight! The lower receiver is heavy duty, not doubt. Really the RR is probably no better or worse quality than any other M4 or the Colt, except for that trigger group. The gun functioned flawlessly. No jams, and persistent groupings.

Anyone with their own expereince or thoughts on this rifle?

2

just out of curiosity.
dont take this the wrong way, but…
what are your qualifications ?

I ask because most people dont compare RRA with Colts and you havent mentioned any of the staking issues to start with…

3

RRA, and BM are worse quality than colt. PERIOD. Look around the site, there are answers, photos and facts abound to show you exactly why.
Just the QC of Colt alone blows RRa and BM out of the water; and then we get into parts, materials, and proper adherence to the TDP. RRa and BM are bottm tier. Colt is top tier. It’s like comparing a Ferrari to a Hyundai.

4

My thoughts upon reading the thread title.

5

Why do so many people care about the fit between the upper and lower receiver when it has absolutely no influence on accuracy or reliability?

6

Well, I really don’t care what other ‘PEOPLE’ do. I started this posting to express the differences I noticed between two rifles. I am not a sheep and don’t follow cliques or trends of the masses. I just call things as I see them.

If RR and Bushmaster are such crappy quality, why is it they function flawlessly, shoot tight groups, and sell so many rifles nationwide?

My Colt 6940 is my duty rifle that I carry all the time. Myh qualifications have nothing to do with the comparison of two rifles on the range! If I had two hours and time to write a book, I would tell you my ‘QUALIFICATIONS’. But that is mute. I’m not a bragger!

I don’t know what 'Staking" issues are or TDP is, I was just comparing the two rifles and the differences I noticed and seeking feedback. Maybe some feedback on WHY the RR and Bushmaster are inferior with some factual information attached. How bout some specific ways to improve these rifles??? :suicide2:

7

RR AR’s and Colt shouldn’t even be mentioned in the same sentence. No part of the RRA AR meets the Govt Spec for a fighting weapon.

So no, your RRA is NOT equal to your Colt.

C4

8

use the search function.:dance3:

seriously, it will save you lots of grief around here…

9

I think mostly it is a regurgitation of bad gun store advice/salesmanship. And most people not knowing any better.

Your usual generic Gunstore owner/salesman:
“See how tight this upper and lower fit, that is nice, you don’t get that with a colt; only with these top of the line RRA’s and BM’s that the government issues there special ops forces accross the pond…”

I would venture to guess that gunstores make more off of a $1,000.00 RRA (Price mark-up) than they do off of a $1,200.00 Colt. Just a guess.

I’ve heard quite a few salesman use the “Look how tight…” this or that fits line versus this manufacturer to sell something, not just guns by any means.

10

:shout: you haven’t been on M4C for very long, have you?

Read “The Chart” and the description of each part of the rifle Rob_S was so nice to compile, and you will see why

11

Ignorance is never an excuse…

If you take about ten seeconds searching this site you will have a plethora of threads to sho wyou exactly why they are inferior and exactly how to make them better.

THey sell so many rifles nation wide for the same reason you mentioned above; being ignorance of consumers.
You might get a few RRa’s and BM’s that shoot well, but that doesn’t change the fact they are not built to TDP spec; which is the Lowest acceptable standards for a fighting rifle.

Lot’ sof people buy Hyundais, they drive okay, get ffrom point A to point B; but I wouldn’t be compring them to a Ferrari or a bugatti any time soon…

Be proactive and go find out why that RRA is inferior…
Here’s a first link for you to start with:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642

12

You could start by ensuring that your castle nut and carrier key are properly staked and then maybe saving up for a quality replacement BCG from a company like BCM, LMT, Colt, etc.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm

http://www.specializedarmament.com/catalog/Colt_AR_15_Parts-4-0.html

http://www.lewismachine.net/product.php?p=24&cid=7&session=73955021450c9f1f9d8538fbb943fec3

13

Great, but do you know what you don’t know? Meaning, do you have the skill and knowledge to understand the differences between AR’s, know what the Govt spec calls out (TDP) and how it applies to AR’s?

If RR and Bushmaster are such crappy quality, why is it they function flawlessly, shoot tight groups, and sell so many rifles nationwide?

“Flawlessly.” My favorite word. Just as an FYI, they do not. Yes, you might have one or two that runs well, but that isn’t the norm (especially if you start to take those guns to carbine schools where they will be shot a lot more and pushed hard).

The reason why they sell so many is that BM and RRA spend TRUCK LOADS of money on advertising. They also tend to have no competition in the gun shops across this country. When is the last time you saw a DD, LMT, Colt BCM, Noveske in your local shops?

My Colt 6940 is my duty rifle that I carry all the time. Myh qualifications have nothing to do with the comparison of two rifles on the range! If I had two hours and time to write a book, I would tell you my ‘QUALIFICATIONS’. But that is mute. I’m not a bragger!

There are two groups of people when talking about firearms. Trigger pullers and armorer’s. Trigger pullers generally know NOTHING about the mechanics of the weapon, the technical specs and what is a quality part (and what is not).

So when people are asking you for your background, it is to see if you are qualified to say one is better than the other.

I don’t know what 'Staking" issues are or TDP is, I was just comparing the two rifles and the differences I noticed and seeking feedback. Maybe some feedback on WHY the RR and Bushmaster are inferior with some factual information attached. How bout some specific ways to improve these rifles??? :suicide2:

Then you do not know what you don’t know and I would stop posting on the net that one AR is better than another because it shoots a type group or is “flawless.”

For starters: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13532&highlight=bushmaster

Then read all the tacked technical based threads stickied at the top of these forums.

C4

14

Ok, so we established that i am an uneducated trigger puller!

Why is it that the FBI and DEA ( and a multitude of other federal/state/local law enforcement agencies) have contracts with RRA and the agents carry these rifles? I know, Government goes with the least expensive contract bidder. right?

My department has RRA on the list as an authorized duty weapon. So I would imagine it has passed some testing that has shown the rifle to be at least acceptable in quality and performance.

When it comes down to the battle field, I concur that only a proven battle rifle should be deployed. HK and Colt are the grade for Operators. But I can also guarantee that I can kill just as easily with a RRA or Bushmaster!

15

A given Bushmaster may shoot as well and be as reliable as a given Colt, but the odds are against it. Bushmaster cuts more corners in the construction and materials and doesn’t emphasize quality control to the extent that Colt does. Thus, they can sell them cheaper.

16

Not if yours is the turd that won’t fire because it slipped through the poor QC measures.

17

We knew this with your first post (FYI).

Why is it that the FBI and DEA ( and a multitude of other federal/state/local law enforcement agencies) have contracts with RRA and the agents carry these rifles? I know, Government goes with the least expensive contract bidder. right?

Common question. Always give guns purchased by a federal agency the stink eye (before deciding to buy them). Especially long guns.

RRA basically GAVE the DEA the guns (not a cheap deal, but gave them to them). This is a hard carrot for them to pass up. On RRA’s part, this was a VERY smart marketing move.

My department has RRA on the list as an authorized duty weapon. So I would imagine it has passed some testing that has shown the rifle to be at least acceptable in quality and performance.

I think you would be suprised that it has not passed any test (or any test of any value). Commonly, guns that are intersting, cool looking, “flawless” or cheap end up on these authorized lists.

Since LE generally ONLY SHOOT THEIR AR’s ONCE A YEAR (about 60 + rounds for quals), any AR will pass this test. This is a poor way to decide if an AR is quality or not.

When it comes down to the battle field, I concur that only a proven battle rifle should be deployed. HK and Colt are the grade for Operators. But I can also guarantee that I can kill just as easily with a RRA or Bushmaster!

I can kill you with a rock, a slingshot, an arrow, my car, etc.

The question you have to ask yourself is this one; how much is your life worth? Is it worth the price of one of the lessor quality AR’s or a properly built AR?

For me, the answer is easy. YMMV.

C4

18

You can definitely kill just as easily with those. The issue is not with their ability to kill when they shoot a projectile. The issue is reliability when you life can/will be on the line. The gas key staking is a big issue. If you are in a fight and your gas key comes off of the BCG, you have a useless weapon.

RRA and BM are fine out of the box for a range gun. If you spend the time and money to upgrade them to the level of a Colt, you would save money by just buying a Colt. It really depends on what your intended use is. If my life is going to be on the line, then why cut some corners? The attention to details is often the thing that saves your life. RRA and BM have a history of not doing that. I think they can be fine weapons, but they are overpriced for what they are and I would just spend the extra $ to get a BCM, DD, LMT or Colt and be done with it. Just below them, I would go S&W and Spike’s. Below them (by a good distance) I would go RRA and BM.

19

Read around some more and you will see that those agencies adopted them for lowest cost purposes and some of them have not functioned up to snuff and they are slowly getting rid of them, or improving them to be up to snuff with new parts.

So by your assesment only people in the armed forces (operators) on the battle field (Your front lawn could turn into a battle field in certain instances) have a need for a top tier gun that has the smallest percentage chance at a stoppage or malfunction; when you are in a life or death situation?
I whole heartedly disagree; every citizen should own a top tier rifle and/or pistol that they can defend their life and liberty with. Putting faith in a rifle to potentially save your life is a big deal; and I would never, repaet, never trust my life, or the lives of my family with any thing that had been proven to be inferior to other opfferings in the same price range or just a bit more expensive.

20

You know the DEA replaced those RRA rifles because of poor performance, correct? You are also aware that contract also included many more Colts and Sig rifles, and the RRA part was very small in comparison?

You knew that, correct?