Rifle caliber pistols for defensive use (ex. AR style pistol)

General Firearms Terminal Ballistic Information
1

After discussing the legitimacy of pistol caliber carbines for defensive use, I now have another question.

What do you all think of rifle caliber pistols? How about the terminal performance of a rifle caliber pistol in 5.56x45mm? I have learned from my other thread that pistol caliber carbines do not have much to offer compared to a rifle. So that got me thinking that perhaps an AR pistol or maybe the Kel-Tec PLR-16 might be a better choice for certain applications such as a truck gun or something that I can keep at my business without having to lug around my AR carbine all the time.

This solution it seems would satisfy the complaints most heard about the inadequacy of pistol ammunition and it would be in a package that is much smaller than a carbine or rifle. I would think it would give me the terminal performance of rifle ammunition. Plus it would be legal to carry concealed if one so chooses.

I hadn’t even given this idea any thought before until now. Seems like a great idea. A better solution than a PCC. What do you think?

2

Rifle caliber pistols are ungainly, not much larger than a SBR, and are at best a compromise weapon.

I understand their purpose, I myself have one being setup, until I get the NFA process finished. But I think they are of limited usefulness.

3

Unfortunately, in our state, while we otherwise have reasonable firearms laws, prohibits SBRs and SBSs. An AR pistol has a certain appeal in that context.

-john

4

I know many people i have talked to seem to have a sour opinion of AR pistols. however most people are also sour on pistol caliber carbines as well. Using the logic as to why people don’t like PCC’s mainly their poor terminal perfomance, this would be superior

I am thinking something like this rig from Rock river would be a great outfit for more discrete carry than a fullsize AR.

5

A PCC has to have a 16" barrel for non nfa too, so they are not much smaller than a carbine. If you want a folding stock, aks are very effective.

IMO, id take an sbr ak (7.62x39) or an sbr ar in 300blk/6.8spc. These would be the best solution if possible. If not i’d take an ar pistol in 300blk/6.8 and use the buffer for cheek wield as this is better than a pistol.

5.56 is VERY ammo dependant in short barrel lengths. BH50gr tsx is good out of an 8" barrel but I don’t know anything else that performs well.

Maybe Im misunderstanding. Do you want a long gun or an SBR? a PCC is the same size and weight as a ar.

6

SBRs in x39 are known for their dismal performance. For a short barrel, 300 or 6.8 would be better options.

New ammunition, like the BH 50gr are definitely bridging the gap and making a 5.56mm SBR or pistol viable for short range self defense.

Also, I would look into a Sig Sauer wrist brace “stock”. They aren’t technically made for shouldering the pistol and are legal to install on a pistol AR without a NFA.

7
8

I built an AR pistol back in the day, just because I could.

They aren’t totally worthless, as some people say. They aren’t very useful though. I consider it to be a fun range gun.

It works, it is reasonably accurate. It is reasonably reliable with brass cased ammunition, and will reliably fire 60 rounds before steel case gives any trouble. .223 out of a 7 1/2" barrel isn’t going to set the world on fire, but close up is still reasonably impressive ballistically.

The trouble is, where do you actually carry it? I can carry my Gov’t model in most situations, and my LCR carries well in really hot weather. In the car, I can carry an actual rifle with no problem. The states that don’t allow carry of long guns in vehicles provide a use for AR pistols, but I live in Kentucky, and can legally carry a Deathstar if I want to, (and, if you have seen Star Wars, you know that a Deathstar can destroy planets).

It requires very good hearing protection. All firearms do, of course, but a 7 1/2" .223 needs it more than most.

There are a very few practical uses for an AR pistol, but its best use is fun on the range.

9

X39 definitely isn’t the best candidate for SBR was my point. And I really would consider it poor with the current available loads and their expansion thresholds compared to a .300.

I mentioned the brace to be used as a stock. That’s why I said “stock”. I don’t know about you, but if I’m going to field an AR pistol for self defense, I would rather have that as a makeshift stock than the buffer tube. I would never let the hypothetical ignorance of a LEO prevent me from using what I need for self defense. Your mileage may vary, as will his. That’s why I mentioned it.

10

He wants a Rifle Caliber Pistol. Aka an ar15 with no stock and sub 16" barrel. Which is legal in most places.

To the op look up the MK318 (sost) ammo.

11

In the extremely unlikely event I ever use my new Extar EXP556 pistol in a defensive situation, I guess I was thinking of just loading it up with XM556FBIT3. Would that be a decent choice? Or would something else be better?

12

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=128698

13

with a RCP, you give up the main advantage of a shoulder-stocked, two-handed weapon: control and thus precision. i suppose, though, with an RCP you are at least handling both ends of the gun vs a handgun.

the caliber snobs want you to believe that anything less than a 5.56 is no better than a BB gun, but any hit with 9mm FMJ beats every miss with 5.56 TBBC. and you’re more likely to make hits with a carbine than a RCP, so - under your use case criteria of commonality - i’d take a PCC over a RCP…

…especially an AR RCP.

the AR makes a particularly bad pistol mainly because of the RET - on a pistol AR it’s nearly as long as the barrel.
and then there’s the FSP and rear sight adding nearly two inches to the height at either end of the gun.
compare a pistol AR to a kel-tec plr or AK pistol - the apples2apples size envelope is much smaller on the latter two than an AR RCP.

and this is even before considering ultra-short pistol-length gas systems and reliability (and that’s a reason to consider a .300blk - but then again, that’s another major step away from your commonality criteria).

back to some of your reasons for considering a PCC: ammo and magazine commonality.
since you also already have an AR, an AR pistol has merit because the manual of arms, magazines, and ammo are shared. big pluses over an AK or other RCP.
but if discrete portability is the goal, i wouldn’t have a 30rd AR mag adding even more to the size envelope. which then requires you to buy addt’l 20 or 10 rd mags - adding to the total cost and further lessening commonality with your AR.

which pushes you back towards a PCC since you already have pistol mags (and have them on your body) and reload for pistol, but not rifle.

so if you’re willing to give up significant precision & control, add considerable blast & flash, buy new mags, spend way more on ammo, and still have a relatively large package to carry around, an AR pistol is a-okay.

i’m not totally bashing the idea, but it strays from many of your original criteria/reasons..

if i were to do a RCP (and, hey, i might, just to have more options), i’d do it using one of these with a 10rd mag filled with federal fusion (plus an RMR sight): http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/Pistols/.

so many choices - ain’t america great? :smile:

(btw, everything’s a trade off, but i wouldn’t worry too much about terminal ballistics with a RCP. see BallisticsByTheInch.com)

14

Just as an observation, without making a technical determination as to the efficacy of such firearms as so many have significantly done here, I noticed on several documentaries that Special Forces and Police SWAT type units have team members carrying the AR Pistol.

Obviously the primary reason for them using the AR pistol would be its compact size. So they must be effective in CQC. I must admit they do have a certain appeal to me, irrespective of their usefulness.

15

Do you have links to any of this? I’m going to go ahead and call BS on SOF and Swat units picking a AR pistol over an SBR.

16

I hear you Grizzly16, and I knew it was shaky at best my posting those comments without any links. I happened to see a documentary on the Military Channel about SF where I saw an AR pistol on one of the team member’s chest. Also, I saw on the Crime & Investigation Channel either Dallas SWAT or Kansas City SWAT, one of the team members with an AR pistol.

Again, please excuse my uncorroborated assertion. I will do my best to get a definitive answer.

Best

17

Stupid cops picking AR pistols, yeah that happens.

I have a hard time believing that SF would. Particularly since they are supposed to have certain issue weapons by MTOE. However it’s likely that the people making the show aren’t cautious enough in selecting and vetting the photos they use.

18

Adding a folding stock to an ak or the honey badger stock to an ar pistol adds almost no bulk if Nfa is legal in your state.

If your going with a Pcc you are not saving much over a full sized ar with a 20rd mag. A 14.5" permed with tube hand guard, aim point and extendable honey badger stock. Way more capability in a same siZe package. 1,20rd mag will get you out of any reasonable situation and let you engage targets pretty far off if desired, and will fit under a car seat.

Edit: I find it hard to believe that wherever it’s going can fit a Pcc and/or ar/ak pistol, but not a carbine or even a broken down ar. If you are dealing with such a situation, I can’t comment as I have too limited experience with using either. But I would think a Pcc would more rounds on target faster. Hopefully someone can comment on that aspect of it.

19

Ammo is out there that is designed for use in a very short barreled ARs.

You’ll need to experiment and ensure that your pistol AR functions with the ammo you’ve chosen, as reliable function is often an issue.

As far as federal law, the barrel can be any length, it doesn’t need to be 16" as with a rifle. (unless there’s a specific state law you’re dealing with)

Don’t put a vertical foregrip of any kind on such a weapon, as you would be creating an unregistered “Any Other Weapon.”

Be aware that blast on a 5.56 weapon with a barrel shorter than 10" will be intense, to say the least, especially indoors.

I would want to examine the performance of ammunition intended for this class of weapons and determine that it exceeded the performance of pistol-caliber ammunition before I chose it.

20

People forget that a 7.5" AR pistol loaded with the proper 55gr 5.56 load is
ballistically far superior to the P90, while offering a wider choice
of ammo, easier user serviceability, a larger choice of upgrades
and accessories - all in a package that weighs as much or less.
Some people may argue that you get 50 rounds in a P90 compared
to 30 in an AR pistol - but when you’re pushing roughly the same
diameter bullet that weighs almost twice as much at a slightly higher
velocity, I think that’s negated a little. Not to mention cost…

From a PDW standpoint, it makes a lot of sense. Easily concealable
under a trench coat etc… The Secret Service used to use UZIs…
I’d rather have a SB AR than an UZI…