I see a lot about which scope/which mount but I’m curious about reticules. I recently purchased a Lewis Machine and Tool .308 MWS. I’m currently in the market for optics, now I have read over several forums (and threads on this one) and I still have a few unanswered questions, so now I beg the great M4C sages to impart their wisdom.
So far I have found three general types of reticules that interest me, and I’m wondering if those wonderful people reading this could dive into the pros and cons of each, here they are:
Generic crosshair/dot. I see these a lot of Zeiss and European brands, I’m not sure how these would work they have no drop or method of measuring drop.
Mildot. This one is the front runner currently, it seems like a great all around choice.
Drop compensator (like on the ACOG) These are starting to grow on me.
Is there any type I should shy away from or lean towards that I’m not looking into?
You can use non-mil dot scopes to range. You just need to know the measurements on the reticle.
1st thing is what budget you are looking at. I think the new 1-8 Short Dot or Leupold would be good options based on preliminary user reviews. Both give you enough high end power while still being able to be used in a CQB role. But they are pretty pricey.
Budget is around 2k. Do you have any sources on where to purchase either?
The more I look at it, the more I think a BDC may be for me, however, I am always open to suggestions. After browsing S&B and Leupold’s website, I see no mention of either scope or how far off they are. USOptics has a very nice offering in both 1.1-6 and 1.8-10x.
After talking to another member, it seems the choices are going into 1-8x.
1.5-6x seems ideal for this rifle, the USO is the only one on the market that appeals to me. However, is there a real difference between 1.8x and 1.5x, the 10x offers a lot more than 6x.
I agree that the Leupold should be a great optic, but… Based on some recent posts from (I think it was) KevinB I was thinking that the Leupold would not be available for commercial purchase anytime soon.
I think I’m spending more time researching optics than I did on my finals paper(s). I’m going to elaborate more on its intended use. I don’t currently run ‘‘three gun’’ classes but that is a possibility in the future, the majority of my time will be spend at the range, in transport and possibly on the boat/4-wheeler. It’s not going into a combat zone but at the same time it’s not going into a safe for life either. I need to know that the optic I choose can take a bit of a beating, but nothing like getting deployed overseas. I’m not entirely sure what ''CQB" work I would be doing, or even what true CQB even entitles.
My options have opened up a bit with the inclusion of less ‘‘tactical’’ scopes:
Swarovski Z6 1.1-6x. This scope actually looks beautiful and sleek, its light weight but I’m not sure about it’s ability to take a beating.
Swarovski Z6 1.7-10x This seems like it may be a bit overkill for my new intended range of 500y, this also seems to have the most wide range or use, yes 1.7 is close for CQB but I’m sure if I’d get used to it over time.
Zeiss 1.5x-6x I have been reading Sniper’s Hide and these are said to be very durable optics.
NightForce 2.5x-10x w/ Mildot a great scope, but seemingly more for percision rifles than a battle rifle like the LMT.
USO 1.5-6x The only drawback on this scope I found is the reticule looks way to busy for me.
Once I get this scope, I need to be sure to make a nice donation to M4C for all the help! Fifteen years ago I don’t think it would be even possible to get such a large feedback base.
A) 25 - 600 is more about magnification than reticles
B) To be clear a MIL is a MIL is a MIL - a MIL Dot (or MIL Line) subtends at 3.6" at 100 yrds, 7.2" at 200…36" at 1000 - you range by knowing the size of the object in question.
C) The quality of the glass should be a BIG consideration
D) Adjustable paralax is generally a good thing
E) A BDC is rarely ‘on’ - it is set for one bullet at one speed and one atmospheric condition.
F) You might want to consider IPYH (inch per hundred yards) or MOA Minute of Angle reticles as well (1.0472" per 100 yrds)
G) The lower the magnification, the more reason to have an uncluttered reticle
H) A Duplex reticle can be used for limited ranging - it ain’t easy to really use for a wide variety of object sizes
I) The best is to have your optic adjust in fractional increments of the reticle - ie - MIL reticles the optic adjusts in fractions of a MIL, MOA / MOA, IPHY / IPHY.
J) The learning curve will be flattened if you choose whatever reticle type you already think in terms of - in your case, and I am just guessing - IPHY.
Thanks! I’m working under the assumption 1-600y would be served with a 6x. On man sized (well, zombie sized) targets.
Right now the 1-6x Swarovski is a front runner, it seems to have everything I’m looking for and would be the ideal optic for 0-600y. The 1.7-10x would work well too, as I don’t think I’ll be doing much ‘‘CQB’’ which was the concern of some. I’m not worried about Swaroveski glass after digging through a slew of reviews praising it. The 1.7-10x would be a more ‘‘all around’’ type thing, and I can get behind that as something I’d benefit from. I also don’t see that big of an issue with 1.7 as opposed to 1.0 on the lowest magnification.
Low powered mag (in my case, 4x on a 16" 5.56) at 600 - the clutter of the reticle becomes key. I have a Short Dot with a CQB - fractionalizing a MIL Line at that distance isn’t easy. It is simply a function of proper dimension of the stadia at that low level of magnification. What I am getting around to saying - as the distance grows (esp beyond 500) having some more top end mag will be very helpful in making the reticle (any kind) more functional.
Based on how you intend to shoot (what you intend to shoot at) stop and consider the POA utilized by the optic and the size relationship to the intended POI. Specifically look at the line / dot / whatevercenteraimingpointis and determine how fat that is; then ask yourself ‘self, is this reasonable for me based on what I want to do?’ Example: I want to punch paper and score well. My choices are an optic with a center dot that is 2 MOA and a second optic that is 0.06 MILs at the center stadia. At 600 that 2 MOA dot = 12.57"; whereas the 0.06 MIL cross hair = 1.3". Conversely, at 30 yrds on a mover, that 2 MOA dot is an advantage.
Adjustments - again best case the adjustments match up with the reticle type. Secondly, zero stops are nice to have but not required as you most likely won’t be working in the dark nor will it count for reals. Regardless, once you have established a good working zero, simply count and record the number of klicks until the erector bottoms out. Now you know and will always be able to return to zero. Some turrets do a better job than others on letting you know when you have made multiple revolutions. IMHO Loopy is one of the worst for this. Others tackle this matter with color coding or indicator pins that pop out. USO is smart - they just use a big assed turret cap, so it is zero to 1k+ in one spin of the wheel. Regardless - just know how many Klicks per rev, and pay attention to the rev you are on. Do not get hung up on which way the dials turn or having some optics that turn one way and other optics on other rifles that turn another way.
In sum, I think low powered variables (or even fixed) are good if they are in step with the overall concept of the weapon. For me (and me alone) I am not interested in low powers on a .308 since (regardless of barrel length) there is a fair amount of reach out with a .308 I want a little more top end (10 - 12 x). However, the sum of the parts is of greater importance than any one feature.
Before you say USO (or any other quality optics provider) is off the table why don’t you call USO and ask Becky (whom you will speak with) if John (company owner) is available.
They will build you what ever you want.
They will stand behind anything they sell.
They are American Made.
If the cost of a new USO is beyond what you want to spend - go to the snipershide - USO is but one of many types of quality glass that gets traded there on a daily basis. The volume of optics trades there is great enough that you will likely find what you want without much hassle.
