Am I the only one who thinks that training restricted to LEO/MIL, etc is counter-intuitive of the meaning of the 2nd amendment?
I’m not bitching, I’m just postulating.
Edit: Could the mod move the post to the General Discussion. I accidentally posted in the AR thread.
Sometimes the restrictions are because the class is being held at a PD range. I know this happens with one training company in NJ, they request that some classes be LEO only. Just a thought.
I think I’ll get this in before they move it.
I don’t see how it impacts the Second at all. You could make a stretch and say the framers felt it was important for the citizen to have the same training as the military, but I don’t see that as being valid.
Do you think a bakery should have to make a wedding cake for a gay couple, or be forced to adorn a cake with Nazi symbols on Hitler’s birthday? So why should a trainer be required to train specific parties?
I can see how it might upset folks. I think it is in some cases a contractual deal and in some cases a marketing ploy.
On our range we were limited to law enforcement and military by administrative regulation. Most police training course take place during the work week and IMO, generally longer duration.
I don’t think most LE courses contain any secret sauces. I would have been willing to teach anything I taught LE to civilians, and pretty much have, except select-fire.
Our firearms training courses conducted on the range didn’t include legal aspects regarding use of force, except for our general firearms instructor course. I believe that learning to hit and learning when to hit are initially two separate subjects and only intermingle during simulation or force-on-force training. Understand that doesn’t preclude the use of no-shoot targets or threat identification during range training.
JMO
What’s the context?
Is there a law proposed that no civilians are allowed to learn how to use a gun safely and legally?
Hey, our tax dollars pay for it, we should have access :jester:
An unfortunately large number of people in the firearms industry are not 2nd Amendment supporters in any form and would much rather sell to .gov only if they could make ends meet by doing so.
That’s why it is refreshing and surprising when someone in the firearms industry issues a statement like Bill Geissele recently did or when BCM cancelled Milwaukee PD’s order due to the activities of Ed Flynn. Antigun Ed Flynn would get a discounts at many (perhaps most) firearms businesses.
I think it has more to do with hosting site, class demand, class availability, and time constraints.
There are numerous reasons for such restrictions. It can be due to liability, access to secure facilities and because of personnel who may be in the same building such as detectives, undercover personnel, etc…
There is something to be said for “bearing arms,” to be the same physical goods, same training, and generally same access.
IG and the others here make some good points about liability and restricted personnel like undercovers, teams guys.
However, I am seeing some classes pop up (this CQB class locally for instance) that have the restricted class, but no civilian equivalent. Another local example is active shoot training -target acquisition being a named skill to be worked on.
*Moreover, I am growing generally discontented with police specifically trying to limit or bar access to firearms, to civilians. Cops having access to NFA/full-auto and not civies is an example. State Police in MI flat out, publicly state they don’t want civies to have any access to firearms whatsoever and behind closed doors, away from the cameras it gets nasty when some cops publicly support the 2A. *bit of a tangent.
Ever been in a class with militia types?
Tactics classes specifically, many instructors won’t touch civilian enrollment. As a civilian you aren’t likely to be with your 4 buds, kitted out to do a 5 man cqb run. Singleton room clearing, sure some guys do that. Maybe add one person. But any cqb class worth anything is going to geared around having anbunh of dudes to help. And sending one guy off to here and another over there after a class does very little to enhance someone’s cqb capability.
You have to remember that upper echelon leaders are many times politically driven. Many line officers are pro-2A, some are anti-2A and some don’t care much one way or another.
I’m not sure how you come to the conclusion the “police” are trying to restrict your guns. The police have absolutely no control over what the law is. It honestly sound like you are having a pity party because you can’t get into some class. As a cop i can tell you most cops i know are pro-gun.
About the last thing I want to do is show up at some 2-day CQB class with 7 dudes I have never laid eyes on.
You might be jocked up with plates and a ballistic helmet, but what happens when Cletus sends a rifle round through your armpit or neck? Ever treat a gunshot wound to the throat? I have, and it’s quite messy.
If people want to learn stuff like this, then enlist in the Marines or Army on an Infantry contract. They will be happy to teach you.
Or feel free to sign on with LAPD, bust your ass for 5 years on patrol, then try out for Metro. Kick ass there for 5 years and work your way into D Platoon.
The popo ain’t stomping on your rights. Anybody who has the skills and the stones can get the training they want - they just have to earn it.
Interesting.
I’m not really too concerned. I shoot IDPA once a month with a half dozen or so local LEO’s, not many of them are setting the scores on fire due to superior training being available.
IDPA may not be the best determining factor of someone’s skill, but if they’re being so highly trained well,…
I can see how if I really wanted the class it might upset me a bit, but I’m not seeing a vast difference in score that would lead me to believe the training is all of that.
If you want to learn to shoot better, the fundamentals plus a lot of practice time while shooting with folks who have a higher skill level than yourself is what’s needed.
Although receiving a Class from a top tier training facility and an excellent trainer might be very helpful.
A) I don’t want to pay to go someplace I’m not wanted.
B) I want some assurance that the juice is worth the squeeze.
What used to really tourque my crank was when people would only sell training ammo to Departments and LEO’s only back in the bad old days.
I’ve addressed this point of view in courses I’ve instructed over the past 20+ years. The Second Amendment has nothing to do with training, it applies to the right to firearm ownership.
Any training conducted, targeted beyond basic skills, has the potential for injury should someone not follow strict procedure. If you are paid to carry a firearm for a living, you are subject to discipline or loss of employment should you make a significant mistake during live fire training. A person who is attending a paid course of instruction has less motivation to follow strict guidelines and procedures to ensure the safety of personnel who are training alongside them.
If you want advanced training, it is available. You will have to seek out a solid instructor who is teaching the course of instruction. Don’t expect the primary focus of the course to be on rubbing elbows with LEO or active duty military personnel. The course should be focused on developing advanced skills, it’s not a social gathering. Don’t be surprised if personnel attending the course do not share their personal information with you.
If you want advanced police training, seek out employment with a LE agency. If you want advanced CQB training similar to training our combat troops are learning, join the military and request assignment to a combat unit.
I see serious student’s point. I also see the liability issue.
I’ll also be the one who says it, the tac team doesn’t want you to know the tactics they use. I have friends and family that are GBI, County SWAT, officers for larger cities, etc. I’ve asked several that have been to LE/Mil only training classes and each one stated that it was the tactics. My wife’s uncle said, “Guns don’t scare me. People who can shoot, they scare me. We never know if the next call out will be a squabble over the neighbors dog crapping in my yard or a determined, barricaded, competent shooter with a quality weapon that can put accurate rounds on us from 7 yards to over 100. The only advantages we have over someone like that are numbers and the fact that they don’t know what we’re going to do or when.”. Maybe he wasn’t telling the truth, but it made sense.
This “used” to be a concern of mine. I thought they were getting some jedi level skill that was being denied to the private citizen. What I discovered was that things like “team tactics”, “radio coordination” and shooting postures designed around body armor and 20 pounds of gear aren’t necessarily of benefit to the private citizen.
I used to get together with my personal crew and practice team drills and things like that with the misguided belief that we might actually use this stuff one day. Then as the years went by it became harder and harder to get the “members of my team” to actually show up at the range for ordinary shooting.
So yeah, there is a lot of stuff MIL/LE does that would just be stupid for a private citizen to devote too much time and effort to. This is hampered by the fact that most private citizens lack the discipline and maturity to engage in coordinated shooting exercises and you end up with a gaggle of Yeagertards that sooner or later zap a member of B squad in the shoot house while doing multiple entry dynamic drills.
It’s scary enough to shoot on a static line with somebody who can’t master the much feared Serpa holster / Glock combination.
So if you are a door kicker, your training should be designed around kicking doors and what comes next. But if you are a homeowner, your training should be designed around defending your home and property. It’s not like you are going to be flashbanging your living room as your clear your home. A lot of the stuff people learned in Mosul isn’t going to be particularly applicable to your back yard. You aren’t going to set up a sniper overwatch before you check out your garage to see what that noise was.
JSP10477 hit on a few points that are relevant. Another point is that without a verifiable paper trail confirming a person’s training background and documented skill level, holding a course open to the general public can be an invitation to disaster.
Unless you’re SOF, the (Army) infantry will be too busy doing layouts in the motorpool to actually train.
I don’t think you have to “earn it”, I just think you have to be able to “afford it.” Nobody should have to commit 4 years of their existence to play in a kill house. You just need to sign up with three close shooting buddies and start with the “very basics” until everyone is on the same page and is able to apply what they have learned.
I know plenty of LAPD guys who I’d never want to be in a “live fire” team exercise with. The important questions is, am I ever going to need to know how to do this? I did it, it was enlightening to do and I assumed I would potentially need these valuable skills at the time, but that was almost 30 years ago and I’ve never really needed 95% of it.
The only really useful thing I learned is “don’t shoot everything that moves, some of those moving things are on your team.” And you don’t need a killhouse or MOUT facility to learn that skill.