Replicating Knights 14.5 Carbine

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

Hi everyone,

The Knights 14.5" carbine model is pretty much my holy grail of an AR-15 build. I’ve heard the stories about how soft it shoots and the dimpled barrel is just beautiful. I also love that they went with the heavy barrel profile, which is nice and stiff, and then lightened it up through the dimpling. I’ve heard it’s not only incredibly soft but very accurate as well.

I tried to purchase one off Armslist a couple weeks back and got totally scammed on the deal. Now that I’m out $2k, buying one of these for what they’re going for on GunBroker feels a little off the table. They’re currently selling in the $3k range for the upper alone.

So, all that leads me to ask myself, is there any way that I could replicate this on my own? Here’s some thoughts I’ve had:

  1. Buy a KAC Mod 1 16" upper and have it chopped. The Mod 1 already comes with a light profile barrel, so I think dimpling would be out of the question and it’d be slightly less accurate. However, I’d still get the KAC intermediate gas system so I should have relatively the same recoil impulse. I’ve heard of people chopping these without needing to open the port, but if I had to, it’s not that big of a deal.

  2. I’ve considered trying to build one from an off-the-shelf mid-length barrel. The idea would be to get a 16" or 18" mid-length heavy profile barrel. I could then send it off to Marvin Pitts and have it chopped to 14.5 and dimpled. The 16" and 18" probably come with smaller gas ports, so by not opening it up at all, as long as it will eat 5.56 pressure ammo, I should be close to the impulse of the KAC Carbine. That said, I’m a little worried that doing this with a mid-length instead of KAC’s intermediate would not give me as close to the smoothness of their carbine. Thoughts on this? I like this option because of the less proprietary parts, but dislike it because it might not get me close to the smoothness.

  3. I know Noveske and a few other manufacturers used to make their own version of an intermediate gas system on some of their barrels, so I could try to order one or track one down and then do the same thing. I worry a little bit about how difficult it would be to find one.

Has anyone else done a 14.5 intermediate build before? Would love to chat with someone who’s already done this and is happy with it. Thanks!

2

I am pretty certain that by the time you are done attempting to replicate (duplicate more like it) the finer points of a Knight’s, and chopping, opening and modifying this and that, + the cost of labor, you are going to be near the cost of a Knights, without having the reliability of a factory hand-assembled rifle that is tested and good to go out of the box.
In my opinion, putting together a gun from parts makes sense if the parts are off the shelf, without need for modding, etc.

3

Aryn was working on replicating them (thread on AR15. Com under kac) or go directly through Pitts

Or just do a Noveske 12,13,or 14"

4

Hmmm… not sure about that.

I already have an upper and most every other part. So:

Barrel: ~$250
Rail: $300
Smith work: ~$400 (maybe a lot less)

That’s $950 vs $3200 for purchasing the upper. I’m not sure where you’re coming up with that extra $2k+

5

Huh. Interesting. Haven’t seen that thread. Any chance you have a link? I’ll try to search around over there, but I haven’t come across it in all my searching so far.

6

The biggest things that make the Mod 1 what it is cannot be found anywhere else:
KAC port size and placement
E3 bolt and barrel extension
KAC lower

I know it doesn’t help to point out the unfortunate truth, no joy in dashing anyone’s dreams. But there is a bright side: there may be some left overs from the back orders. We’ll let you know.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

7

Listen to F2S. Another option would be to get in contact with Marvin Pitts of Nefarious Arms. He might have an angle or idea that can get you on the right track.

I hope you get your money back on the GB deal. It’s just like any other online source - only deal with verified, credentialed, positive feedback people and your money will be well spent.

8

I think you may have misunderstood or completely missed the point of my post. I’m not interested in replicating a Mod 1. I’m interesting in replicating their carbine upper.

#1 There’s nothing magical about KAC’s port size and location. As I mentioned, other manufacturers sell barrels with intermediate gas systems. Now, they’re very slightly different than KAC’s, but but inconsequential. The port size is easy. Either find one the same size, find one smaller and open it up, or start with a blank or custom order.

#2 The E3 bolt is the only reason I really don’t want to buy a KAC Mod 1 and chop it down. I hate the proprietary nature of it. I’d be fine with it, if I were able to get the factory upper, but I consider it a minus, not a plus.

#3 I’m only referring to uppers. I already have a couple KAC lowers, and while they’re great, I have no use for most of their features. I’d be placing this upper on one of my SBR lowers which are not KAC and that’s fine with me.

I have no clue what you’re talking about with back orders. The carbine upper has been sold out for a long time and Knights has already stated they won’t do more. There are already some left over, it’s just that they’re selling for more than $3k. To spend $3k on an upper feels unnecessary when I feel like it’d be doable to build it for 1/3 the cost.

9

I’ve already been in contact with Marvin and gotten quotes on getting a barrel dimpled. He’s been grew help and one of the reasons I feel like this is doable in the first place.

10

Rock on bro.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

11

Other than the E3 bolt on a 14.5, what is proprietary? I thought their gas system was only on the 16" barrels? Does the 14.5 have an intermediate? I get worrying about “proprietary” but when the bolts have a demonstrated 30k-ish life, is it really that big of a problem?

If you’re dead set on the 14.5 factory, the only options seem to be: wait for one to pop up for a good deal or pay out the nose on GB. If it were my money, I’d either see what Marvin Pitts can do or replicate a close clone with available parts.

12

I agree with F2S, you seem to have it all figured out.

13

You do who know who he works for right? If so, and you want to ignore all I can say is what he said. Rock on, bro.

14

No, the intermediate gas system is used on the 14.5 carbine upper as well.

I’m really not worried about things being proprietary. I’m just simply making the point, that if I had 2 identical uppers in front of me, except that one had an E3 bolt and the other didn’t, I’d choose the one that didn’t. The E3 bolt is badass, and I’d own it and shoot it and be really happy with it. But if I had the choice, I’d prefer not to have it. I have no problem with the factory upper, I’d love it. It’s just paying $3k for it seems unnecessary and building a similar spec’d upper sounds fun and it doesn’t seem like a lot of people have tried.

15

Seriously?

16

Here’s an old quote I dug up from Wes which gets at the gist of what I’m talking about:

“Smooth” is good.

When you get to shoot as many different ar’ configurations as paul and i do, the difference the little things make become more easily noticed and appreciated. We like our custom uppers to run “smoothly”. It is a difficult quality to quantify. See new AR’ guy’s critique of our 6.8 SPC upper several years ago on the uppers, lowers, etc., forum, where he comments at some length on this quality in our winning entry.

Another noteworthy example regarding this “smooth” running quality came from a Special Forces weapons guy who took one of our 10.5" guns on deployment to the rock box. He said in training up with the new weapon, he had to recalibrate his “feel” for the platform. In his words, “it feels like the bolt is closing on an empty chamber every time, when in fact it is feeding properly.” He also reported confirmed hits on some “man-size” targets at 600 yd with it. Yes, it was a sub-moa 10.5". Maybe coincidental - but probably not.

A gun that runs more smoothly implies one that runs more reliably, more consistently, and with with better accuracy. Also, a shooter can run a smooth gun faster than one that has the typical “choppy” quality to it.

We place great emphasis on getting the best quality components built to the highest tolerances in our custom builds. This means “straighter” parts, producing less friction. Another critical aspect of a weapon’s “smooth” qualities are optimum porting for the gas system, recoil spring, and buffer weight, as well as proper lubrication. The ionbond diamondblack coating on the bolt carrier group components that mstn pioneered also is a big contributor to this.

It is accepted as fact at this point in time that a mid-length gas system in a 14.5" to 16" barrel produces a smoother felt recoil pulse, less wear and tear on the weapon, as well as enhanced reliability than the original format carbine length gas system. Sound suppressor usage tends to greatly exacerbate these differences, too. As a result, we would never consider using a carbine length gas system in a custom 16" build. Mid-length has been the proven way to go in the 16" for some time now.

When the new Knight’s Armament SR15 E3 hit the streets, I was most impressed with what an outstanding job they did in balancing the recoil spring and buffer with the gas pulse in their longer than standard mid-length gas system. This rifle is as smooth running as you can find, even at its ultra-light weight, and represents a tremendous value for the money. Wearing just a generic A2 flash hider, it produces less apparent recoil than some uppers with compensators.

You’ll note that the KAC SR15 E3 utilizes Knight’s own peculiar mid-length gas system, longer than the “industry standard” mid-length. This I felt was a large part of their success. But they wanted $39 each for this gas tube …

… So we turned to another pair of industry innovators, Noveske and Vltor, who came up with their own “intermediate” length gas system for 18" SPR use, within a fraction of an inch of that used by Knight’s. It is #3 in the below photos:

I tried this intermediate length gas system in 18" builds and felt that it offered an actual decrease in the qualities we were after. It felt “choppy” compared to the rifle elngth gas system in an 18" build. But what about in a 16" upper?

Two identical uppers were built up with each of the Noveske barrels shown, one with the traditional mid-length gas system, and one with the new intermediate length. Matching Nightforce scopes were installed, and a side by side test was performed. Both shot equally well (0.60 moa), but the new gas system produced a “smoother” weapon with less apparent recoil.

We are so impressed with this new intermediate length gas system in the 16" that we’re going to make it a part of our future custom offerings. We’re even going to be able to step down another size on the gas port.

Good shooting,

Wes Grant MSTN

17

Wes was a treasure to the shooting community. It’s a shame he got burnt out on the stupidity of the forums. I was sorry to see him leave Memphis. He not only personally helped me - on his own time at his own house, it was nice to see him at the local range and classes. The man is a literal treasure trove of information.

It seems that you’re only going to be happy with a factory upper - other than the price. I wish you luck and hope it meets your expectations.

18

Yeah, seems like a really awesome guy.

Hah! Good point. :slight_smile:

19

I’m curious just how much “smooth” is worth. What “smooth” means to me, is that the gas port, the spring, and the buffer are matched to the ammo as well as ambient temperature. Of course, I am sure KAC errs on the side of caution and so they over-gas at 72F so that your rifle will also run at 0F. Etc.

Where is your limit for this?

Do you want to run junky MFS/Silver Bear/Etc. through it?

Do you want to be able to run it reasonably dirty, or whore filthy?

Do you prefer a carbine buffer, or the added mass of the H2 buffer?

I personally like heavy buffers and Sprinco Blue springs, etc. as they help overcome little issues such as fouling, debris, and in one rifle’s case , very sharp feed ramps. They just increase the amount of “stuff that can go wrong” and the rifle still run.

But then, the rifle isn’t as “smooth”.

So it really depends on what you want and why. There is no free lunch.

20

All good points. Replies below;

Definitely not.

Do you want to be able to run it reasonably dirty, or whore filthy?

Yes.

Do you prefer a carbine buffer, or the added mass of the H2 buffer?

Not sure. I think maybe I’d prefer an H2 so that I could drop down to a carbine if I ever needed to run lighter-pressure ammo?

I personally like heavy buffers and Sprinco Blue springs, etc. as they help overcome little issues such as fouling, debris, and in one rifle’s case , very sharp feed ramps. They just increase the amount of “stuff that can go wrong” and the rifle still run.

But then, the rifle isn’t as “smooth”.

So it really depends on what you want and why. There is no free lunch.

I think the factory KAC carbine SBR uses an H2 buffer and IIRC it can choke sometimes on weaker ammo.