Why is killing so that good can come of it less problematic than lying so that good can come of it?
Because killing in and of itself is not evil, context and motive speak to that. Lying is evil because it destroys the truth. Even though the motive for lying could be good (save a life) it still always destroys the truth.
My opinion is as follows:
In this situation: Lying, and killing are tools. Use them as needed.
Honor isn’t a factor when the lives of others are at stake. Be that your enemy, or comrades. I’d gladly degrade myself, and forego my honor so that friends can survive. Or I can force the enemy to underestemate me, and tip the scales.
Lying, cheating, stealing, and killing are not evil. It’s just about application.
In this particular scenario jihadists will probably kill you anyway and while it does suck you are in that position, death is probably your only out. Having said this, anything on camera will be a big “suck my constitution loving dick” statement.
No way im renouncing my religious beliefs in that moment, thats when I need my beliefs the most. Check my sig.
Just for understanding more clearly. Would the statement “The ends justify the means” accurately describe your position?
Renouncing convictions is temporary. Dying is permanent.
There was a time when Soldiers were told that they could not say anything against the United States under the threat of a Court Martial or charges of Treason if they became POWs.
Around the time of the Vietnam War this was changed because they finally realized that you can only hold out for so long under the type of duress our heroes had to endure at places like the “Hanoi Hilton”. As long as they hold out for as long as they can humanly can - and they do not actually defect in the process (just like those dozens of GIs who defected to North Korea when they were captured during the Korean War).
A dead Soldier is of no use to anyone, especially to the Army he belongs to. But if they managed to stay alive and escape back to their lines - they are going to be invaluable for multiple reasons.
Just because I tell a bunch of Godless scum that I renounce my religion, country, or core beliefs; it doesn’t mean that I have lost my faith in my religion, country or God Almighty. Even if they make me sign a statement in blood. YMMV.
Ok, you were running for the door and got shot in the leg. They are now asking you where the kids are that you were with earlier. You know because you told them where a good hiding place was before you tried to get away and go for help.
Further assume that your recommended “hiding place” is on one end of the school near a window that they could escape from IF the coast was clear and you have the OPTION of telling a lie that would send the shooters to the other end of the school into a basement section which would provide a “best chance” for the kids to escape.
You can of course say nothing and take another bullet. Or you can BS two evil killers and give a bunch of kids a much better chance at living. Are you seriously telling me you wouldn’t do that to try and save a bunch of kids?!?
If that is what you are saying, then you are correct that we have two VERY different standards.
If I “claim” to accept God but in my heart and mind don’t believe a word of it, is that going to fool your God?
I suspect it depends upon the ends and the means.
If the ends are more valuable, such as human life having greater value than not lying, then yes. If we are talking about the reverse and killing innocent people to prevent having to tell a lie, then no.
I don’t want to fall off a house, I could get hurt. However, if there was a small child or a puppy up there wandering around the edge I’d go up there anyhow to try and save them even though I’d really rather not risk the fall. The ends would justify the means.
Why don’t you just choose to believe it? :ph34r:
But on topic, as far as ends justifying means - I agree that sometimes they can. Right and wrong are rooted in the consequences of an action. It just takes some cogent thought and foresight to get it right. Lying to a murderer in order to save innocent children is clearly such an example. Asking “why” to that is called hitting philosophical bedrock with the shovel of a stupid question.
Under certain conditions I could. But currently I do not.
That’s a very dangerous thing to say, because that can lead to unintended consequences. But I’m going to have to say yes. In this perticular situation.
I think God undertands my motives in this case.
I would say whatever they want me to say, even on camera, that did not sacrifice other people for my own gain, such as the telling the hostage takers where the kids are hiding kind of thing.
Making statements, videos, whatever, are instantly discredited by the fact that you are a hostage. You can say America kills babies on video, the two masked guys with AKs behind you and the black eyes discredit the whole thing. It’s an opportunity to get a message or proof of life out. Same thing with written statements.
If I can “return with honor” I don’t care what it takes.
To more closely answer a hypothetical of you will live for sure if you renounce your convictions (and open up opportunity to escape, kill them, send some sort of message to friendlies that will help, etc not to mention “live to fight another day”) I would go with renouncing convictions.
The means are worth the ends in my opinion. Although I am a “do the ends justify the means” kind of guy, I also keep in mind all the different paths that can be taken and the different end results.
Don’t really see it as dishonoring yourself anyway under the given conditions.
I would do whatever my conscious mind allowed at that given moment. I hope I would do the right thing, but I haven’t always chosen righteousness in the past.
I would remain quiet as a matter of principle, I don’t always live up to the principles I profess.
Here’s one for you, the shooters have captured you and them. They will let all but one go including you if you kill that one. If you refuse you all die. Would you kill the one?
Time to take a breather and go rent Sophie’s Choice.
Yep. Then probably kill myself for what I’d done. But at least I saved a bunch of other kids.
I’d have made the hardest choice a person can make.