Ah, similar to what Muslims engage in called “Taqiyya”
It depends on many variables. But if those truly are the perimeters & I can buy time to E&E or neutralize more tangos & possibly save OTHER’s lives by my actions then, YES.
I’d go the Patrick Henry route. 
So hypothetically, if you were in a school that was on lock down because two shooters were killing kids for fun and you knew were a bunch of kids were hiding from them, you’d tell the shooters?
I would suggest that lying to evil people who wish to do harm in an effort to undermine their evil is not only justified but it would be evil not to lie to them.
I understand that as well. And if I truly believe there will be no gained opportunity or benefit to a deception, it makes sense to just tell them to go shit in their hat.
I’m with you. But the OP’s hypothetical situation you could possibly buy time, and maybe even escape if you lie about your beliefs.
But if I honestly thought that they’d kill me anyway, I’d start preaching shit from the contitution, or Thomas Pain phrases, or something to drive them nuts before I took the axe, hammer, bullet, or whatever.
Do keep in mind, gents, that ceding to the Kalima (the first of Islam’s five pillars) basically involves taking a lifelong oath against bacon … something I’m sure that many of us believe in with very great conviction, indeed.
AC
Can’t get revenge if you die, so easy choice imo.
NO MORE CMMG TACTICAL BACON?!
Fuck that. Nevermind.
I would say whatever I deemed more likely to gain me a position of tactical advantage, but with the caveat that I would never do so at the expense of the nation’s strategic advantage.
What do I mean? Well, as a soldier and representative of my country (still my bias even though I’m off Active Duty), I acknowledge that my personal safety is less valuable than the overall strategic position of the United States. Even though I might not necessarily agree with the campaign, I have to accept this position as a matter of duty to the contract to which I deliberately capitulated myself. So if there’s a camera running, and I’m instructed to read a statement condemning the US, I cannot do it and must accept the consequences (death), even IF I thought I could spare my own life by reading it. A video of a US soldier condemning the US is a strategic loss for my country and a strategic gain for my captors.
But if I thought I could build rapport with and gain the trust of my captors by privately pretending to convert to Islam or criticize the United States, I would do so in order to gain a tactical advantage and either escape or kill the theocratic-fascists holding me. Since the conversation would be private, there would be no strategic loss for the US, and I would actually be duty-bound to “convert to Islam” because doing so would be a form of resistance. One cannot resist, which IS a dutiful and moral obligation, if one is dead.
So if pretending to convert to Islam would produce no strategic disadvantage for the greater purpose and gain me a tactical advantage at the individual level, I would do it.
If pretending to convert to Islam would produce a strategic advantage for my enemy but increase my odds of personal safety, I would be duty bound to refuse and die.
Many years ago, when I toted a musket and a cutlass, my Drill Instructors made me memorize this. I am sure they had good reasons, as they did for most of their actions.
CODE OF CONDUCT FOR THE U. S. FIGHTING MAN
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I am an American fighting man. I serve in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.
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I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender my men while they still have the means to resist.
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If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.
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If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information, or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.
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When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am bound to give only name, rank, service number and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.
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I will never forget that I am an American fighting man, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.
What we are discussing seems to lie somewhere between #3 and #5. I also not completely sure that being a captive of jihadists makes on a POW anymore than being an inmate at Auschwitz makes one a POW.
Don’t think I would. There are many reasons why I would or would not but the one thing that probably tips the scale is the thought they want you to renounce your convictions so that they can kill you with no honor, or something like that. Might just be the psychological justification they are looking for to kill you.
Kinda weird though, feel like a hypocrite with some of the reasoning and all that but that is the final answer I suppose. Obviously cannot know until in that position.
You by all definition are dead or possibly will be soon. I want to live but dishonoring myself, my family, my country, and God is not an option. I die, I die with honor so my children and brothers in arms will continue my memory as a good man, father, soldier, and American.
And in THAT scenario (a very likely one) I think we all agree. But the scenario presented in the original post was different.
Would you honestly think less of an honorable man who was clearly “taking a shot at it?”
When I see film of guys at Hanoi Hilton talking about “crimes against the peaceful people of Vietnam” I know the deal.
In reading the original post, I’m reminded of a book I read a while back- Bravo Two Zero, by Andy McNabb.
In it, I recall he talked a bit about what they were instructed to do in case of capture (which they were eventually). Bascially amounted to “lie your ass off”. Tell them all about how you’re just a poor lowly know-nothing grunt who has no special information or orders, and doesn’t even want to be there fighting them, etc.
In essence, make them see you as unimportant so they underestimate you and hopefully at some future time you may be able to gain an advantage.
Granted, this could also just get you killed real quick, but I think you get the idea.
I think it all simply comes down to this- is this action going to give me the chance to escape or at least take a few of them with me? Or will it solve nothing anyway and/or be detrimental to my country/comrades?
In the original scenario, if there’s any possible advantage to be gained…Allah? I love that guy! And you say I get a harem of virgins as well? Amazing!. Just hand me one of those AKs and let’s get started! :laugh:
If it’s a case of “read this speech denouncing the Great Satan” and all that crap… No. And I’m not a soldier, that’s just not my thing. Plus as mentioned, it would be a moral victory for the enemy.
I think is this sense I would. If you are in the service of our country you are duty bound to uphold your oath. If you are a civillian I suppose some acceptance could be afforded. However, we are Americans. The enemies we face as a nation want us to turn to ash. No quarter should be given nor asked. I refuse to dishonor those before me and those presently. Making deals to serve your own self preservation is cowardice no matter how much you dress it up.
What if concessions are made to spare fellow inmates who are often used as bargaining tools by the captors?
I don’t think any of us are discussing those who sell out to get light duty or better food. Nor are we talking about POWs who are being treated “as” POWs under the accepted conventions.
So when one talks of honor one must ask if it is better served by ones death or by one who lives to see things made right.
As for Hanoi, I personally feel if you weren’t there (or someplace just like it) that it is dishonorable to question the honor of those who were and did what they had to do.
It is like criticizing those in the death camps who walked to their fate without fighting. We all think we’d do otherwise, but we weren’t there. And whose to say we’d still fight after everything was taken from us, our wives and children killed and we were slowly being starved and worked to death. Several people found them in the predicament before the realized the reality of their situation. And at that point I can understand a man who might walk to his own death as there was nothing left to struggle for.
And at the same time, I can understand the Sonderkommando who seemingly made a deal with the devil to feed the gas chambers in exchange for being the last ones to die. Some call them dishonorable, but having never been in their place I cannot condemn them.
Codes of conduct are important. They give one a meaning and a purpose when all else is taken from you. Ironically in many instances they are what allows a prisoner to survive. They can become a sole source of strength and resolve. But the same can sometimes be true of “playing the game” and putting one over on Charlie.
While I agree on some points made, and fully understand the situations in Hanoi and the Nazi death camps. I cannot in spite of bring myself to dishonor. Without honor a man has nothing. To quote a saying I once heard. Honor is a gift a man gives to himself. No one else gives that to him. He is also the only one who can take it away. I cannot, will not do it.
I find it interesting you bring up prisoners or fellow hostages. Having worked briefly at a maximum state prison where my mother was head psychologist . I was asked if she was taken hostage if I would release or give in to demands. This is my mother. I told them no let her die or get raped or what have you. Funny thing it is exactly what she told the warden I’d say or do. She said it wasn’t because I didn’t love her, it was because I loved her and I wouldn’t taint my honor that she raised me to have.
Sorry, but our opinions differ Steyr. On this one my stubborn Irish ass won’t budge.
And why would I be talking to these shooters? I suppose one option would be to shoot the shooters if possible. I consider lying to be itself evil, so no I would not do evil that good would supposedly come from it, but then we have different standards don’t we?