Removing SBRs and suppressors regulations under the NFA

I am trying to understand why SBRs and Suppressors are still listed as NFA items?

According to the U.S. v. Miller of 1939 the Supreme Court ruled that the 2A that the protects only military styled weapons appropriate for use in organized militia, and directly from the decision of the court:

           "certainly it is not within judicial notice of this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that it's use could be contributed to the common defense"

And when defining what the militia was and who they were:

            "when called for service these men were expected to appear being supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time"

Can we not use this court ruling to at least get Suppressors and SBR removed from the NFA list, and no longer regulated under the ATF?

Are SBRs and suppressors not ordinary military equipment?

Maybe not in 1934 but they certainly are today

Forgive my ramblings as I am no SME but this seems pretty clear cut to me. It sound ready to be challenged, and we may not be able to do away with the NFA, but why can’t we strip it of some power.

If you think about what you just wrote down you will realize you’ve answered your own question, you’re using common sense and logic against a government entity.

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It is ready to be challenged.

Look at the proliferation of black rifles amoung younger gun buyers.
The generation that grew up playing Goldeneye and Call of Duty video games and went on to fight the GWOT have come of age and changed what civilian gun ownership looks like in this country.

These guys don’t buy the 30-06 deergun much anymore. They buy an AR-15, and many of them would like to get one with a barrel under 16".

With the pro-2a political momentum in the past few years the time to attack the NFA is now.

Agreed!

As bad as the NFA is as law (entire books can and have been written on the subject), I find it deliciously ironic that even applying that bad law as it is written would allow the People (i.e. regular citizens/peasants) to keep and bear SBRs, machine guns, suppressors and the like.
Hey, the Left keeps telling us that the Constitution is a “living document”. Well, then so is the NFA. The people should have arms commonly used by the military. So be it, mutha****as.

Suppressors and SBRs are probably the low hanging fruit on the NFA. So I can have a pistol with a 12" barrel and it’s OK, but as soon as I add a buttstock it’s some super dangerous weapon? To me that’s ripe for picking under the “dangerous and unusual” language of Heller ie only restrictions on especially dangerous or unusual weapons are permitted. Lets put a DOJ flunky who knows shit about guns in front of SCOTUS and have them explain how the addition a buttstock makes a weapon more dangerous and unusual…

Same thing with suppressors. Do mufflers on cars make them more dangerous or unusual? Nope. So why does a muffler on a firearm make it more dangerous and unusual?

So, how do we make this happen? Write our congress-criters? Write the NRA, GOA, NSSF, & NFAFA?

NRA-ILA is the best bet. GOA and other no-compromise groups are not going to be able to do this.

And it won’t happen until a Pro-2A GOP president is elected in 2016.
But the ground work needs to start now so that when this does come up for a vote members in more moderate districts are not scared to vote for this.

US v. Miller is not a good case for the proposition of sound judicial proceedings.

Miller and Layton were bootleggers caught with a sawed off shotgun. The US Attorney tried to prosecute them for NFA violations.

Miller filed a demurrer that the NFA violated the Second Amendment. A demurrer is a legal pleading that essentially states that even if all allegations in the complaint are taken as true, there is no legal cause of action. In this instance, Miller allows that he had a sawed-off shotgun and that it violated the NFA. Nonetheless, the charge must be dismissed because the NFA is unlawful.

The judge granted the demurrer without explanation or reasoning, and dismissed the charges. History has it that the judge was pro-gun control/NFA. He knew Miller would “disappear” because he testified against other gang members. The judge expected the US Attorney to appeal the case and win a reversal because Miller would not be around to defend the appeal. That is what happened. So, some extra-judicial processes gave the judge’s/government’s intended result, validating the NFA, without it playing out in a trial.

The US Attorney went from the federal district court that granted the demurrer directly to the SCOTUS, very unusual to bypass the federal circuit court. SCOTUS has to accept the appeal as they could not let the invalidation of the NFA stand.

The Supremes had no record or reasoning to review why the district court judge granted the demurrer.

Judicial notice is an evidentiary short cut. For well-establish facts, the court can take judicial notice of the fact and omit the requirement that it be proven by competent evidence, e.g., the court takes judicial notice that the sky is blue; no meteorologist need testify to that.

So, the Supremes are trying to understand what the trial judge did. That is when they said that “certainly it is not within judicial notice of this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that it’s use could be contributed to the common defense.” The meaning here is that sawed-off shotguns are not so well-established as ordinary military equipment that a court could allow that to be a judicially noticed fact and bypass the requirement that Miller present testimony or other evidence of that fact. The “ordinariness” and contribution to common defense would have to be proven by evidence at a trial.

The Supremes remanded or returned the case back to the district/trial court for further hearing, which never happened.

Also, the meaning of “when called for service these men were expected to appear being supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time” is that a historian would have to testify to this at the subsequent trial. A judge cannot use his knowledge of history to assume sawed-off shotguns fall within the expectation of the time. That is what happened in Heller with all the historical review and amicus briefs, etc.

There have been subsequent cases regarding machines guns, etc. that have a better procedural and judicial history than Miller that have supported regulation/control/prohibition. Most of these have been Commerce Clause challenges. The NFA was passed pursuant to Congress’s taxing power. See Robert’s Obamacare opinion as to the extent SCOTUS will allow Congress to torture it taxing power.

I think the 2nd Amendment Foundation would be able to handle this.

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Someone should make the legal argument that nfa taxes are the equivalent of poll taxes of old. Both are paying a tax to exercise a right after all. You might could get nfa taxes tossed that way…

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My concern to that is it’s a gamble to bring attention to the stamp. They set the $200 price back in 1934 to make it cost prohibitive. They haven’t raised the price in 81 years. There’s nothing stopping them from “adjusting for inflation”. (FYI, that’s approx $3500 today.) We’ve seen what happens when things are brought to their attention, ie. Sig brace, etc.

Sure, it’s stupid, but right now it’s still obtainable. They could decide to go the other way and make it even harder to get. Remember, the current administration would rather us not have guns at all, period. This is a cash cow for them. What do think would happen if there’s no more money coming in?

This is a pick your battles deal & I’m not sure this is a fruitful one to pick.
Let a sleeping dog lie and all that.

The only or best way to pursue this is to stop separating (in the majority of people’s minds) firearm ownership and the Unorganized Militia.


“One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep.”