Rem.870 First Time Buyer- Help and Opinions Please

General Firearms Shotguns
21

In addition, here’s few things I’ve learned over the years about Home Defense with a Shotgun:

For self-defense inside the home at short distances, the brand of ammo, type of choke, or size of (#1 or larger) buckshot isn’t as critical as shot placement from a well-fitted 12 or 20 gauge shotgun with a simple weapon light (i.e. Streamlight TLR1 or etc…). An open Cylinder (C) or Improved Cylinder (IC) choke with Low Recoil (LR) buckshot is preferred for quicker follow-up shots. While #1 buckshot offers the best overall terminal performance, LE Agencies still prefer hardened 00 buckshot due to its superior penetration. Sales is the driving factor as to why there are not more #1 buckshot loads to choose from.

As for a shotgun, keep things simple! A lot of fancy stuff on a Home-Defense (HD) shotgun isn’t necessary! A plain-jane / reliable pump or semi-auto shotgun with a short barrel will do just fine! (SIMPLICITY … and … RELIABLILITY are the operative words here.) An open-choked 18 1/2" - 20" barrel is ideal and an illuminated front bead sight provides the fastest sight picture.

Make sure the rear stock fits you OK (shorter aftermarket stocks are available from Hogue, Remington, or Knoxx Industries). A shorter LOP (Length of Pull) stock might be needed so that things can quickly line-up (straight) using YOUR natural Point of Aim (POA).

Pattern your shotgun at the range with buckshot. Practicing with #8 target loads is perfectly acceptable and saves a lot of wear and tear on the shoulder.

Pistol grips and slings reduce your reactionary and follow-up times (They can be a liability inside the home!). Slings are useful over longer distances outside the home, but may get in the way in close quarters.

Federal’s LE 9-pellet LE132-00 load @ 1,145 fps with LR Flight Control (FC) wads offers outstanding performance in and outside the home (civilian version is PD132-00). These hardened copper plated buckshot pellets penetrate plenty and full-power loads are not needed unless your semi-auto won’t function reliably with LR shells or you need extended range in more open areas. The full-power version of 00 buckshot with FC is LE127-00 @ 1,325 fps.

http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/shotshell/tacticalbuckshot.aspx

For outside the home, I suggest you avoid Federal’s very soft Tru-Ball slugs due to their having significantly less penetration than LR 00 buckshot (i.e. LE132-00 or LE133-00). 00 buckshot with a FC wad is very effective in open areas providing the experienced shooter does his part.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/Shotshell_Data_Book.pdf

Furthermore, instead of the soft foster-style slugs like Tru-Ball, Brenneke’s low recoiling 1-oz. slug (Tactical Home Defense - THD) at 1,325 fps does a much better job for general purpose use outside the home.

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/l_tactical_home_defense.html
http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/247.html

Finally, the K.O. 1-oz. slug from Brenneke (designed for hunting) is an improved foster-style slug and likewise a deep penetrator and good for barrier penetration. The drawback is, that at 1,600 fps, recoil is significantly stronger than the THD load (above) and is overkill for self-defense. Note: The K.O. is fine, but recoil is ………… well, you know what I mean.

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/ko.html
http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/267.html

In short, Goldie Locks would say that Brenneke’s Tactical Home Defense load is just right! :slight_smile: Not too soft like Federal Tru-Ball and not overkill for around the home like the K.O.

P.S. The heavy 1 ¼-oz. Brenneke slugs @ 1,476 fps are used by LE Agencies (i.e. SWAT and HRT) for barrier penetration and provide the deepest penetration of any slug on the market.

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/fileadmin/BrennekeUSA/Law_enforcement/user_upload/Dokumente/Special_Forces_LE.pdf
http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/special_forces_short_magnum.html
http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/238.html

22

Interesting contribution, 147 grain. I have some thoughts:

keep things simple! A lot of fancy stuff on a Home-Defense (HD) shotgun isn’t necessary!

If by fancy stuff, you mean side saddles, I disagree. These are guns with a capacity of 7 at best and any extra ammo you may have will be on the gun - therefore the ability to carry extra ammo on the gun is crucial IMO. I realize 7 rounds is 6 more than you’ll need under ideal circumstances, where hits are made correctly and cleanly, but gunfights rarely happen under ideal circumstances.

an illuminated front bead sight provides the fastest sight picture.

And, potentially, the most useless sight picture. Finding good buck that patterns true to a fixed bead is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. So then you have to make the mental adjustment to apply a holdover, which costs more time IMO than simply having a gun with real sights sighted in properly.
Sure, the bead is faster at ranges that basically amount to point shooting, but at those ranges you’re basically point shooting.

Pistol grips and slings reduce your reactionary and follow-up times (They can be a liability inside the home!). Slings are useful over longer distances outside the home, but may get in the way in close quarters.

I agree with you on slings, but consider pistol grips to be a personal preference issue and not something that objectively, accross the board “reduces reaction and follow up times” (which I think you meant as negative, but would actually be a positive). My personal reason for not using a PG on my 870 isn’t because I think it’s slower, and certainly not because I believe it would be a “liability” (what exactly do you mean by that anyway?), but because a straight stock makes turning the gun for reloads easier for me.

For outside the home, I suggest you avoid Federal’s very soft Tru-Ball slugs due to their having significantly less penetration than LR 00 buckshot (i.e. LE132-00 or LE133-00). 00 buckshot with a FC wad is very effective in open areas providing the experienced shooter does his part.

I agree, depending on what ranges you expect to encounter outside the home. At 40 yards or less I think Federal FC is the way to go. Beyond that buck isn’t, in my opinion, a very reasonable choice (if you have the time to make a choice) and in that circumstance, I’ll take just about any kind of slug over buck.

23

Well, it is posted as a “sticky” on the top of the forum section… :wink:

-Tom

24

Yes, but the majority of it is no longer true when compared to the Express models with extended magazines.

• 870 Police shotguns go thru a special 23 station check list – ranging from visual
inspection, functional testing, test firing, and final inspection.

• All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY.
This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the
same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.

• All parts that enter the “special build area” are visually inspected by hand to ensure
top quality and functionality.

J.D. McGuire of AIP has confirmed this is all BS after his visits to the Illion, NY factory.

• Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer
magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.

Only true on standard magazine 870Ps, not on extended magazine models. Plus its a $3 part.

• A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5
and 8 lbs.

Remington has dropped the heavy sear, and is now using standard sear springs in all 870s.

• A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it
will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive
feeding when using heavier payload rounds.

This is true, and is a $3 part which is easily changed

• Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking
mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism
can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the
appropriate key. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.

The J-Lock has been taken off 870Es since 2004.

• The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police
shotgun vehicle racks.

New Express models now come with a Speedfeed LE Forend

• The Police shotguns utilize the heavy duty SPEEDFEED Stocks and Fore-ends.

Speedfeed is now making forends, and supposedly the new stocks as well on NIB 870Es.

• The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without
physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.

Only on sporting models, and the 18" Express with the standard magazine. Every other Express with a extended magazine does not have magazine tube detents.

• The Express model has a BEAD BLAST BLUE finish while the Police models utilize
either High Luster bluing or Parkerization.

True

• The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a
compressed metal housing.

True

• The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction
with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock
down as used on the Express system.

Only on sporting models, not models with extended magazines.

• The receivers used in Police guns are “vibra honed” to smooth out rough finishes
and remove burrs before parkerization or bluing.

IIRC, this is also BS confirmed by J.D. McGuire

• Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal
cast which are utilized on the Express models.

True about the extractor, but Remington is using the same ejector across the board in all 870s. Plus the milled extractor is $12, and is also easily changed out.

So basically there are roughly $15 worth of easily changed parts that are different between the 18" Express Synthetic with +2 extension, and the basic 870P Synthetic with +2 extension.

The real difference is you get parkerization/gloss bluing, metal trigger guard, and the option of walnut stocks. These are purely aesthetic differences, and do no make a hill of beans difference in durability or reliability. The only 18" Express model that is not on par with the 870P internally is #25549 which has a 18" barrel, but standard magazine with the new-style magazine retainer & no barrel ring detent.

So it really boils down to:

Do you want a nicer looking shotgun for $200 more dollars.

or

Do you want a rough blue finish, spend $15 to replace 2 parts, and spend the other $185 on shells/training/accessories?

25

Good info to know, 556A2. Although one continues to hear “The Express HD model is crap, you need to buy the Police model” when discussing 870’s.

26

Yes, simplicity and reliability is 100% of my focus here. I see no reason to clutter up a simple weapon like a shotgun.
I’m not going to bother with a pistol grip unless I change the stock out for a shell holder or recoil reduction type.
The sling I simply want the option to add for training/classes. I agree about not using them indoors- even my rifle won’t have the sling attached there.
I do want a side shell holder, for the same reason I want an extended mag tube- as stated the ammo capacity on a shotgun is less than awesome.

A far as sights- In a nutshell you would say that rifle sights are more desirable even for shot?
This is something I was mulling over myself too, as it would give me the option get into slugs more effectively. Even thought I’m sure 90% of my lifetime shooting will be shot. ]

The real difference is you get parkerization/gloss bluing, metal trigger guard, and the option of walnut stocks. These are purely aesthetic differences, and do no make a hill of beans difference in durability or reliability. The only 18" Express model that is not on par with the 870P internally is #25549 which has a 18" barrel, but standard magazine with the new-style magazine retainer & no barrel ring detent.

So it really boils down to:

Do you want a nicer looking shotgun for $200 more dollars.

or

Do you want a rough blue finish, spend $15 to replace 2 parts, and spend the other $185 on shells/training/accessories?

Very helpful post- thanks.
So your saying that the Rem. 870 Exp. #95077 is pretty much ok aside from said upgrade parts?

Well, it’s not the looks that I’m stuck over- it’s getting what I want in the package to make it as effective as I feel I may need.
For example, one of the issues I’m having is if I get the 870 Exp. and after shooting it just can’t for some reason or other, live with the cylinder barrel, a choked replacement’s going to raise the price by approx. $150- slightly more if I want to change to rifle sights. Add any other accessories or upgrades, and I’m back up around AIP’s prices…
Basically, my issue is, if needed, do I piece it together, and end up spending close to the same as I would if I just bit the bullet and got it all done right once?:frowning:

27

One hundred and eighty dollars is not going to set me back any. I have more than that tied up in shells alone. The Police Mangum on the receiver will let me sleep a little easier at night, aka give me confidence in the weapon. It’s DOD/DHS/ and LEO track record speaks for itself.

As Mr. Vang stated, if you are not planning on hard use for your 870 then the Express will serve it’s purpose.

28

A far as sights- In a nutshell you would say that rifle sights are more desirable even for shot?

If this question is being directed to me, then the answer is ABSOLUTELY.

29

Nobody is saying that the 870 express is not an effective shotgun. It is, and is a durable/reliable platform. I have/do own both and there is a fit and finish difference between the 870E and the 870P. I could afford the difference in price, so I went with the 870P. You will not have a sub par weapon if you go with the 870E, I am just the type who wants a better build quality if I can swing it.

30

What is the gun going to be used for? I assumed it would be home defense and with a quick barrel change, a good hunter to use with your buds.

31

I agree.

I own an Express with Police parts, and I am very confident in it. I also had to clean it up internally, and it still has a horrible finish. I bought it because I needed it, and if I were ever purchasing another HD shotgun it would be an 870P.

You also have a plethora of sight choices on the 870P which are not available on the Express. Every 870P I’ve handle or been issued, has just oozed with quality. I can not say the same for my Express.

Buy an 870P. Police turn-ins can be found at attractive prices and you will be able to tell that it was built for MIL/LE instead of the gun counter at WalMart.

32

Good analysis, 556A2. I have been telling folks this for years but few want to listen. When that sticky first went up, I responded similarly to it, but my post was deleted and the sticky was closed to new posts.

I too had an 870E that I updated with 870P parts for a few $. Edited at add: And I would buy the 870E again (model 25077).

33

Exactly.

I hate to be a pain, but can somebody help me out with finding the 870P upgrade parts? I looked at the parts on Brownells, but not only did they not have one of the parts, but they don’t say whether their spare parts are for 870E or 870P’s.:mad: Or at least I didn’t see it anywhere…

34

Contact J.D. @ AIP Tactical. He can get you anything you want and you can be damn sure he’ll send you the right stuff.

35

Try Midway USA. They have a good selection of Rem. 870 goodies. Cheaper than dirt has a few, but can’t touch Midway. A lot of knowledgeable guys (I assume they’re all guys??) on this thread, so more will show up.
Area 51 Tactical and Gun Accessories.com.

36

Dude, there is a lot of great info on this thread, but if I can make a suggestion, the 870 Express, unless you are going to shoot thousands of rounds every year, will probably work fine for you. The P model is better, but it is designed to not only be a carry weapon, it is used for training as well. Just a thought. The Express model is no slouch.

37

Refer back to my post… there is NO difference between the 870E & 870P internally except for 2 parts. They are built on the same receivers, use the same parts, and come off the same assembly line.

Its totally cool if that is your preference, but the 870 Express can take the same amount of abuse as a 870 Police.

Don’t put too much faith in someone that sells $1500 870 Police models, and then touts them as being better even if does great barrel work.

38

Vang specifically says on his website that the 870E is a more than servicable weapon, and will gladly work over your 870E and turn it into a great HD gun. Nobody should bag on Hans Vang as he is one of the nicest guys in the industry and is true patriot.

The moral of the story is, if budget is a concern buy an 870E and rest easy. If you can, or don’t mind spending a little extra money, get an 870P which in my first hand experience has a bit better “build quality” over an 870E. I think the point of this thread was to educate the OP, so he/she can make an educated decision based on his/her circumstance.

39

Good grief. I just read the whole website. E-mail sent. Thanks.

40

Well said.