Reloading

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

How many of you guys load your own ammo? How cheap can you reload 5.56 & .45 per round? How reliable is the ammo? How hard is it to learn?

I have been looking hard at a Dillion XL 650 reloader and then buying the 5.56, .45, and 9mm dies now, and maybe the .308 down the road sometime.

Ammo is just getting too damn expensive to shoot as much as I would like. I have plans on really stepping up my range time & training if this new job works out. The private range were I’m a member is just three miles down the road and it’s a Monday-Friday 7AM-3:30 PM job. This is just not possible with my current job. I have way too long of a commute and the hours are just crazy.

Reloading seems the answer.

2

Dinger,
I have a XL650 (with the bells and whistles) (redding competion dies I got from Sinclair Int)

My Varget powdered Mk262 clone loads (compressed and above SAAMI FWIW) clock 2750 out of a 16" (IIRC - I have not loaded in 9 months) are Sub MOA. With new Winchester brass they run about .40 a round (about half of my 7.62mm Match loads)

My plinking stuff with 55gr and old brass are IIRC about 1/4 of that.

I dont shoot enough .45 to bother reloading (maybe 2k a year) and 9mm is pretty cheap that I have not bothered to load it in a long long long time.

3

I reload with a single stage.

I have pull down powder and pills that I load XM193 for about $.08 per round with once fired brass i shot new.

The 77 gr nosler load I run is still over $.20 per round.

The .308 175 SMK I load is $.32 per round but only because the BH match brass I use was given to me by a very kind suppressor manufacturer.

I shoot mostly 9mm and can buy it cheap enough that I won’t spend time reloading it.

4

If you are willing to buy components in bulk, you can save. Note that whenever you buy primers and powder you will pay hazmat fees, so it makes sense to buy a bunch at once to spread the hazmat. Alternatively, pick this stuff ip at gun shows and often the dealers either eat the fees or they have deals where they buy enough in bulk that fees are waived for them.

Here’s some numbers:

AA Data 68 or WC844, $68 for 8lbs. Most other 8lb jugs run around $120 or so (Ramshot TAC, Varget, H335). 1 lb of powder will load around 280 rounds

Remington 7 1/2 small rifle primers, $15/thousand

It’s been awhile since I’ve purchased bullets, premium OTM bullets will run .10 - .15 per bullet, pulled 55 FMJBT run closer to .05 per bullet IIRC

If assembled correctly, they are just as reliable. Brass is reusable (as long as you can find the empties) so you can figure 4-5 reloads per case. I always look for guys shooting new WWB or XM-193, and if they don’t mind me picking up their empties, that’s a great source of brass. LC, Win, Remington brass is good. Avoid using Federal brass unless you are willing to download it some, and I don’t reload more than once.

My setup is a Lee single stage combined with a separte turret press. I perfrom all case prep on the single stage and prime using a hndheld primer. Cases are then stored in ziplocs for loading whwnever.

On loading day I charge with powder, seat and crimp. Loading day production is 250 rounds per hour. Case prep takes time though by the time you trim, chamfer and debur. I end up doing most of prep in late fall/winter when I’m not shooting much and then just relaoding the cases throughout the year.

Also note that if you use mil cases that have crimped primer pockets, you need to either swage or ream them out. That’s a one time good deal only though.

5

Dillon has a VHS tape on the press and Sierra has a good two-tape series by G. David Tubb on reloading for highpower. Buy (or borrow) them to get an idea of what you are getting into.

Like home brewing, with good technique and ingredients you can make a great product. Buy powder and primers in bulk for best price and to keep down hazmat surcharges or buy at gunshows. Ball park: $.04/55 gr. FMJBT, $.015/primer, $.04/26 gr. surplus powder, $.045/once fired, processed case or $.14/round, not counting your time. (For comparison, Canned Heat is $.20/round plus shipping (no shipping if you puchase >$500.00.)

During a lull in my work, we reloaded more than 20K rounds prior to 2000. I started shooting them in classes in late 2001, then added my oldest children to the mix. We finished them up earlier this month at Boone County. Out of all those rounds, I had one primer that fell out into the lower receiver when it fed. Well-made reloads can be viable, especially given declining QC on ammunition these days. YMMV. Just don’t be “that guy” becase of bad reloads (or anything else).

Don’t neglect the time and care required for case preparation. This brass was prepped with a Dillon swage that turns out to have been out of round. Two Colt bolts appear in Pat’s Book of Horrors (and one of them made it into Dean Caputo’s slide show) with gas cuts from the rim of the circle made by the primer into the firing pin hole in the face of the bolt.

I have sent the bolts to Colt to see if they are still serviceable. Then they are going to Dillon so I can get a replacement part for the swage. Then the swage gets sold. I’ll either buy a reamer or buy brass alreaded reamed, not swaged.

Unless pistol ammo prices go through the roof, it isn’t worth it to me to load .45 ACP or 9mm. (7000 230 grain .45 ACP projectiles weigh 230 pounds; shipping costs have to be considered as well or costs of going to gun shows.) Having said that, Pat remarked at our last class, “We don’t shoot enough pistol.”

6

In Oregon there is no sales tax so when I buy powder and primers I either buy what Sportsman’s Warehouse has on the shelf or have them order it. While I usually still pay retail it always ends up being less than if I ordered it on-line with discount. Even in states with sales tax buying from a large store and not paying hazmat still works out better. The only saving I ever got buying powder and primers “mail order” was when the order was 65+ pounds of powder and 100K+ primers (local group buy).

7

OK, thanks for the advice.

Now for sake of me being a new guy to loading, what components would you suggest? Remember I know next to nothing about this stuff.

Please post a list of what components you suggest I buy for some good quality training ammo. Because of the relatively cheap price of 9mm, lets stick to 5.56 & .45 for now.

8

5.56 – LC/Win case, Remington 7 1/2 or CCI small rifle (450 IIRC) primer, whatever bullet you normally buy (55 FMJBT), a cheap ball powder. AA68 is new and it’s a tad quick so you won’t be able to duplicate XM-193 velocity, but it will get close enough. If you can find any AA2230C sitting on a shelf, jump at it. WCC844 surplus powder is pretty much the same as Hogdon 335 which is a canister grade staple.

Any of those powders will work fine for 55-62 grain stuff. If you want to load 68-77 grain OTMs, try Ramshot TAC. Extruded powders which also work well (but don’t meter as consistently as ball) include Hogdon Varget, Hogdon 4895, Alliant Reloader 15, Vhita Vourui (or however the hell you spell it) 140.

9

I only hand load my yellow glass 300 and 600yd ammo. 77gr Sierras and 80gr Bergers, both with varget. Good loads, but varget is pretty dirty if use in somethign that would fire more than 100rds in a day for me.

Ammo is going up because of the price of components, you’ll see the same increase in when you start reloading.
Reloading isnt something you can half ass, and it does take a LOT of your time -so figure that into the mix. As mentioned already case prep is important and time consuming.

Pistol ammo is almost worth reloading because its so easy. Rifle - you have to deal with sizing, lubing, possibly uncrimping primer pockets - and when you get your first case stuck in the sizing die…

If you want to make a hobby of reloading have fun, its very satisfying, but dont expect to really save any money.

I used to spend a lot of time reloading, which was cutting into my shooting time, and increased trigger time is more benefical to me than saving a few bucks.

10

I guess I’m going to disagree here, especially if your goal is to shoot more. If you want to shoot a bunch, you can save a bunch.

Other options for case prep exist BTW. Once you gather thousands of cases you can send them off for trimming, resizing, decrimping. Alternatively, invest in good equipment (Dillon, Gracey, Giraud trimmer) and you can speed this process up. It costs up front to get equipped, but if you expect to shoot thousands of rounds a year for years, it will pay for itself in no time.

11

My goal is to save money. I’m not really interested in loading for enhanced long range accuracy or improved ballistics. That’s a little out of my lane. For the little amount of long range group shooting I do factory ammo is fine.

That’s why I’m mostly interested in loading .45, with 5.56 being a distant second on my list of priorities. Like you guys have already stated 9mm is still cheap enough to make reloading a waste of time.

12

Thats one of the reasons I retired my .45s. I can practice twice as much with my 9mm :slight_smile: Not turn this into a caliber debate…

Add up the cost of the equipment, look at the current price of components (and you wont want to shoot lead), figure in the time and decide what best for you.

I dont think when the time is considered, you are not saving much money.

Lead - depending on how much you shoot, I was shooting 4-5K rounds a month of lead 230gr ball from my 1911 for almost 2 years. For shits and giggles I went to a free lead screaning a the local Hospital. There was only 1 person who tested higher than me. Thats when went to jacketed ammo.

13

Everyone here has given you excellent advice. The only thing I would add is start small with a single stage press and make some handgun ammunition. This will help teach you the basics and just as importantly, help you find out if you enjoy reloading as a hobby. It is very time consuming and if you buy a bunch of Dillon equipment and find you don’t like reloading then that was a lot of money you could have used to buy ammo.

I have a Dillon 1050, 550 and several single stage presses and I reload many different calibers but I like reloading as a hobby (except in the summer when my Florida garage is 100+ degrees).

Anyway, my advice would be to start small and if you find you like reloading then dump the money in a quality progressive press.

Stay Safe,
J

PS - Thanks to everyone else on this thread. You gave me some good ideas. :slight_smile:

14

Here’s a thought: If you want .45 ACP, for not much more than setting up a single stage press, buy a Dillon Square Deal, used if possible, in .45 ACP. If you want to move up, sell it and buy a 550/650 (or just keep it and not have to switch dies back and forth). That way you limit your expense to start and see if the whole progressive reloading scene is for you.

bigbore-I am loading my last 769 hard cast bullets and going to jacketed because of your post. Thanks.

ETA: Example:

WSC45AU 45 ACP Unprimed Brass $13.25 per 100

WB45MC230 45cal (.451) 230gr FMJ $8.75 per 100

WLP Large Pistol $17.85 per 1000

W2311 WINCHESTER 231 (1lb) $16.50

These are from Wideners. At 5.7 grains of 231 per cartridge you can load 1228 rounds. So, 1000 rounds costs less than $254.35 in components. I can buy 100 rounds of this cartridge at my local WalMart for $21.96 plus tax. This is why I seldom reload .45ACP. Having said that, buy reusing cases this figure can be cut in half on subsequent loads.

15

Thats true if you quit your job and start reloading full time. However, if you use your spare time that you would normally dedicate to forums, TV, and picking your nose then you will save money.

The rounds I load for plinking would normally cost, at todays prices, $.20/ round. I reload them for $.08/ round. The precision ammo I load would normally cost $1.30/round. I reload it from $.20 to $.35 per round.

Also be advised, SMK just took a huge price jump. retail on .30 cal 175gr SMK is around $28/100 for example. I just made the switch to Nosler Accu-bond 180gr and Hornady A-MAX 175gr.

Keep an eye on Nosler, they started producing brass about a year ago and will be releasing MK262 in their brass in about 6 months. Will probably cost $1.30 per round but will be better than BH in terms of brass quality.

It is nice living by an ammo manufacturer.

16

Dinger,

 Everyone has given good info.  As I have reloaded for many years (and you know how much I shoot) I have to agree with Bigbore that for the short term, you will not save much money.  As a matter of fact, and I'm sure there is an accountant floating around here with the proper terminology, you have to recoup the cost of your entire set up before you save a dime.  Its like the people who buy the hybrid cars and find out they have to drive 300,000 miles to recoup the additional price of the car in gas savings.

 You have to buy a press, dies, powder, primers, tumbler, case trimmer, lube pad, powder measure and heads.  Brass you can reuse and sometimes you can scrounge some at the range (please ask before you pick up someone else's brass :D ).

 That is not even factoring in your time.  We have been spoiled up until lately by the availability of cheap, good military ammo.  Even now, I'd have to price it out to figure what I would be saving.

 Don't get me wrong, I love to do it.  I had a blast and had a very good teacher that wrote for some magazines that showed me all sorts of stuff.  Subsonic loads, duplex loads, annealing case necks.  For match rounds, I have all sorts of specialized equipment like outside neck turners and digital powder measures.  For me it is only a lack of time.  When it comes to guns, I have time to either shoot with purchased ammo or reload and shoot another day.  I'd rather train.

 The only pistol ammo I reload now is for my .44 Auto Mag (obviously)  For rifle, only 7.62 match rounds (I CAN beat Federal Gold Match, I swear!:D ) and .50BMG (NATO ball in my McMillan is like 00 buck, it goes everywhere, so I have to roll my own).

 Don't forget you need a VERY sturdy bench as well because the ram can flex things easily.  I don't use Dillon at all but a lot of people do.  I prefer RCBS for single stage, Hornady Projector for progressive.  Redding makes good match dies and powder measures. 

 And this is what is refered to as "overkill":eek:

17

Your figures are inline with mine. Also brass are reused (not counting a few loss each shooting session), so the actual cost for the next batch would be less.

18

And once again I’ve gone from mentally mumbling about getting into reloading and then mulling the value of space/time, coming full circle back to grumbling about ammo cost… One of these days I’ll shake down Dad for his RCBS rockchucker :wink:

19

Dinger, I feel for ya on the .45 front, and might start reloading em myself.

Allthou, as was pointed out: Wally World has 230gr WWB 21.00 per 100.00 rounds.

I have been saving my brass thou, and thinking about getting a RCBS Rockchucker or the Dillon Square Deal.

What are you paying for .45 now dude?

20

I reload for .45 only and am currently using a Dillon Square Deal. I’ve been thinking of upgrading to the 650 myself.

If you find your brass on the ground you can reload quite inexpensively. I happen to reload not for cost savings but because nobody sells the ammo I want already made. As such I buy once-fired brass either from ebay or from HQbrass.com