Reload for self-defense rounds?

General Firearms Reloading & Ammunition
21

Thomas m4

all our reload here are with circular crimps. 5.56mm ammo is getting harder to come by… sometimes we end up with local 5.56mm brass which is a weaker brass (i don’t want to mention names) with the new circular crimp… we’ve loaded the brass up to 5x shooting it to m193 velocities. so far so good…

skintop 911

yes they will find out it’s a reload. so how do you determine what kind of head was used? and at what velocity.?

evidence with regards to bullet type (whatever magical bullet they come up with ) and the velocity will be circumstantial… unless it was loaded at a very low velocity that the complete slug was recovered… but if you’re reloading for a magic and destructive bullet… you’ll probably load to a higher than normal velocity … ensuring bullet yaw… and bullet fragmentation. And nobody can prove that it’s a reload.

fivefivesix,

there was a thread here a few months ago. it was about a guy being shot in the leg less than 10meters in the leg with an m16a1. There was a lot of argument. Now clearly... our DocKr and other gurus were there to refute the statement that m193 will not do this (since the leg is not a thick enough muscle and that it will not have enough depth to yaw) but the bullet yawed anyway... destroying a large portion of the leg.   The photo was taken by a Doctor and he shoots with us too ( I often have theoretical arguments with him too lol)

point is… m193 was suppose to go through and through an upper leg due to very close proximity of the shooter and the thickness of the leg… but it did not. Instead it chose to yaw… 5.56mm bullet is very unpredictable… even reload or not.

22

How are you going to load more velocity than what 5.56 pressure gives you with out it being just has dangerous to the shooter as it would be the person being shot?

I am not a Lawyer and I don’t know much more than the average person on law. So please take this with a grain of salt. Doesn’t history set presence 70-80 yrs ago the percentage of gun owners that reloaded was much higher I am sure there has been many a dirtbag taking a dirt nap from reloads hell I am only 32 but I can remember a time that the local hard-ware store sold reloading supplies.
I still wouldn’t put it past some lawyer trying :rolleyes: if he thinks he could get a conviction on it. But if the case is based on you shooting some one with reloads sounds weak to me.

23

Thomas… I am also just 32yrs old…

we’ve loaded 5.56mm to as high as a velocity of 3400fps . with slow powders… you sometimes get blown primers. that’s why they crimp it.

science dictates… not lawyers. they can talk and talk… but science will prevail.

you can’t tell…

24

3400FPS Jeez man what length barrel?
Reminds me earlier this year I was at the range there was a guy with a break open .223 rifle he was telling me he doesn’t fallow the manual because in his words ''you cant overload .223 ‘’ then he ask me if I want to shoot it :no: thanks has I moved a table down father from him. I might be stupid enough to try it from a good bolt action but a break open action I want to keep my ugly face the way it is.

25

oh… sorry… it’s from a 20in barrel.

M193 is suppose to be flying at 3,250fps in a 20in barrel… this company was making 3400fps. in a 20in barrel

a bit more than 3000fps in a 14.5in barrel…

for me… 2850-2900fps out of a 14.5fps is plenty… somehow this company was trying to sell their ammo as m193 velocity to the govt.

26

That’s the usual response when this subject comes up on other forums. And you’re likely correct…I have never heard of anyone prosecuted for using reloads instead of factory in what was otherwise a good shoot.

Not speaking for the good counselor, but what I believe he’s trying to say, is that adding anything at all questionable, to a jury of 12 licensed drivers, who are not usually gun or ammo folks, is just one more thing that will be going through their minds, if you are prosecuted for a shooting.

Anyone who’s ever been involved in criminal prosecutions, knows that often, it’s the intangibles that can sway a jury. As a young cop, I was written numerous commendation letters by the DA’s office for my testimony in criminal trials, and I had a very good record of my suspects being convicted. One DA told me after a particularly hard fought, unexpected win, “you look like the boy next door, you’re polite, and the jury loved you”. “He’s a longhaired biker”. “You could have told them anything, and they would have convicted him”. Since I was telling the truth, I was offended at the statement, but as time went by, I saw many examples of just what he meant, going both ways. If the jury didn’t like something about a witness, or the cop, they would often acquit, despite overwhelming evidence of guilt. If they didn’t like something the defendant, (or his attorney…), they were often dead meat, even if the case wasn’t slam dunk. DA’s factor in those things when they make decisions about going to trial or making a deal.

That’s the reality of our criminal justice system. It isn’t just about black and white facts that everyone will understand and agree on. If your shooting isn’t perfect, and you end up in trial, (I have friends it’s happened to), everything that can be painted as a negative towards you, will be. You may not be convicted for your use of reloads, but if the jury is led to believe it’s another reason you’re a stone cold killer, looking to smoke someone with your own “homemade death rays”, because factory ammunition that the cops and everyone else uses, wasn’t “deadly” enough for you, it might just be enough to push them over the top. Is it the overwhelming factor? Of course not. But after a bunch of trials, I’ll err on the side of adding as little “ammunition” for the other guys to use as possible.

I’ve had a few Federal, a few Winchester, a couple CCI, some Hornady, and a bunch of Remington and PMC fail to fire over the years. Can I buy reloads from you?

27

And that is what the post was originally about, reliability. Not more lethal, just wanted to make sure it goes bang.

Thanks for all the different perspectives on the matter. Brought up some items one doesn’t normally see if just looking at it from one view.

28

Wow. I don’t shoot a lot of factory ammo. But the beauty of hand loading (and priming with a sinclair hand primer) is that you inspect ever component.

I end up getting 100% visual inspection on every powder charge and primer. I’ve had die adjustment issues in my early reloading years, but these days, my ammo is more trustworthy than any factory ammo.

29

i use to have die issues as well, but my single stage lee press is awesome for making ammo for pin shoots and the steel plate shoots.
but like jakesdad said i dont want to give the da any more ammo even if the shoot was good. i use what my local pd uses.

30

I would agree on handloads as more reliable… but again… im too lazy to load rifle ammo lol.

31

I’m a LEO in the same city. Having spent almost 2 decades around our court system, I would not worry about reloads from a legal standpoint, unless you were loading some bizarre round just to make it more lethal.

With that said, I wouldn’t use reloads for self defense unless that was all I had to use. I have been reloading for years, and am confident in my reloading skills. But some of the more modern self defense loadings out there, it’s hard to obtain the components.

I trust the quality control of the major companies enough to use factory ammunition. Personally, my life is worth the $.50-1.00 per round. I’m cheap, but not that cheap…

32

That’s a tough call to make, unless you’re been privy to a large number of cases where the subject was brought into evidence, and I certainly haven’t. But my personal experience has been that both sides will challenge the most inane things, in an attempt to cast the defendant or witness in a bad light.

Making your own ammo at home is perfectly normal to all of us that are gun folks. It’s not going to be to a lot of the folks you’re going to find on juries, either criminal or civil.

This is obviously not a major issue. But having had my every move and motive questioned ad nauseam, by attorneys looking for a chink in the armor, I would choose to give as little help to them as possible.

I don’t have a “NEVER MIND THE DOG, BEWARE OF OWNER” or “PROTECTED BY SMITH AND WESSON” sign on my house either…:wink:

33

show me one case in a bad shoot? not saying it doesnt happen but i have never heard of it ever being a problem. and how will anyone know if they were handloads or not? that is if you dont say anything that is.

34

I won’t argue the point you make as I agree with you.

The point I was trying to make is that I’m not so much worried about legal issues due to using reloaded ammunition as I am about the quality of the ammunition.

If your probable cause to believe your life was threatened is iffy, then you’ll have issues, no matter the source of your ammunition.

You also bring up what I believe is a valid point about the signs and stickers such as “NEVER MIND THE DOG, BEWARE OF OWNER” or “PROTECTED BY SMITH AND WESSON”. These could also not sit well with a jury if presented in a negative light by an attorney. I would avoid such signs and bumper stickers like the plague.

I have made reloads over the years that would duplicate the factory loads I chose. The goal was a training round with the same felt recoil and point of aim as the carry load. While I have never once had one of my reloads fail, I still rely on factory ammunition for carry purposes. The extra few cents per round is worth my life, in my opinion.

When at work, it’s a non-issue. I carry the issued round.

35

If you’re involved in a homicide investigation, everything about the incident will be explored, including your gun and ammo. One of the first things the forensic investigator will attempt to do is determine whether your shooting may have been accidental, and you’re inventing a story to cover it up, (a not uncommon scenario). Your ammo, gun, and empty casing(s) will be examined. They’ll also be looking for any inconsistency in your story, including details about your weapon/ammo. (Not a good time to find out the gun you bought at a gun show was stolen in a burglary BTW…).

36

what if I ask a friend to do the hand load for me?

then it would be like buying factory load from somebody else.

does it matter?

In california you’re allowed to make your firearms. Does it also make you a killer for building firearms?

some people like to make a knife… does a self defense action from a custom knife you made make it a crime? instead of self defense.?

37

You’re confusing actual logic, with what a jury member may perceive about a particular situation.

38

isn’t reloading for self defense…

same with…
building a gun for self defense?
making a knife for self defense?

39

If your a cop and you used a hand load your in deep shit. Factory ammo only for duty period.

If your a citizen either is ok. “Esq” speaks the truth you will go to court, your bullet will be scrutinized along with the weapon and any other ammo on scene that’s revelant to the case.

CSI types have no problem telling a reload fom the factory origional, Primers, powder and bullets are exact in factory ammo and generally random in home loading.

Long story short, I doubt that a police officer is going to ask you about the specific bullets until the intial investigation is done. At some point you will want to advise the police.

After a shooting your going to want to have every/DETAIL/FACT on the table with little or no conjecture or bullshit.

That’s what the representing attorney’s going to do with just the facts. His job is to twist the story, if everything in the report is fact then his or her job will be much harder.

It’s nothing personal it’s simply his job.

Hope this helps some of you.

Good luck
D Williams

40

I got one for you. I’m planning on using hand loads for defensive rounds for my wife only. My wife refuses to train for shoot much at all but I will be providing her a 9mm revolver as a “just in case item” incase I’m not home and she needs a gun.

That being said, the 9mm revolvers have some wicked recoil so I’ll be making her a low powered 9mm round using the Hornady XTP. I’ll keep some in reserve if the DA every wants a sample batch but that will be made with once fired Nickel Plated Federal +P 9m cases and a limited amount of powder to keep the recoil and flash down to a minimum. My guess is that these won’t function in a auto at all since there won’t be enough power to cycle the action.

Is this perfect, NO. But my other option was a .22 Mag revolver and I would prefer to keep my entire collection 9mm so I don’t have to buy or stock other ammo. Plus I can make all the 9mm I’ll ever need.