Get something with Ackley in the name!
I’m not much of a hunter but I work with a know many. Several friends locally have jumped on the 6.5 Creedmoor train for hunting. I think they are up around 10 elk killed with it now. I believe all (definitely most) have used the 143 ELD-X bullet. A couple of past 400 yards too. It’s been very successful for these guys. All shot 270, 30-06, 7 mag, etc prior and all have great things to say for the 6.5.
Never factory-loaded like the 25-06 or 270. 6.5 never really caught on until the 6.5 Creedmoor in the US.
That would be on my short list for elk with a 6.5 Creed, along with the 129 Nosler Accubond Long Range and the 130 Barnes- great sectional density for the bore diameter. The ELD-X is accurate and holds together well while expanding in game.
If looking at a single round for both…7mm-08.
I was hoping to get some more feedback from the OP on the hunt parameters and her range/skill level. But I have a few minutes here so thought I’d offer the experience below.
OK so she is of small frame and recoil sensitive. That falls into the category of youth/wimmen gun (whatever that is). I have a lot of experience with youth hunts, as I have 6 kids, and 5 of them hunt
I live out west, we have long ranges at times. I have seen our gun/bullet combinations perform or not and here’s what I’d say.
The gun that has killed more mule deer than anything else in my safe is a Tikka T3 in 243. Lotta youth hunts on that one. The barnes TSX or Tipped TSX all passed through, all heart/lung or heart shots, all animals recovered no more than 70 yards from where shot. The solids have penciled through, obviously tumbling but we’ve never recovered even a fragment. At least 6 or 7 kills all went that way, all with varying degrees of blood trail. Closest 50 yards or so, farthest just over 200.
One California blacktail was shot with a 243 soft point 95 gr federal round - bullet recovered just under far side hide but did a ton of damage on the way across. No blood trail and gut shot. Took some tracking to find him but we did.
Also have a Tikka T3 6.5 CM using Hornady 143 ELDX. One Kaibab buck shot 327 yds quartering away right in pocket behind shoulder. Bounded twice and dead. Another Kaibab buck shot 125 yards as he got off his bed and walking away straight uphill. Shot just behind ribcage to right of spine (bullet on line to come out brisket given the incline). Went right down, started trying to come up with paralyzed back end 10-15 sec later, turned broadside one more in the boiler room fell right over and never moved again. Cow elk shot high at about 100 yards walked 15 yards and started to wobble, second shot better placed put her down where she stood.
Have a 7mmRem Mag 163 ELDX Tikka T3 shot a cow elk at about 80 yd mostly broadside dead right there. Another cow elk shot high above heart below spine (no-man’s land) went about 20 yd and collapsed unable to walk but still alive. Required a finishing shot. Big bull elk 600 yds broadside went down with one shot.
By contrast shot a bull elk at 200 yd broadside with Berger hybrid, and bullet smashed through the near shoulder and destroyed the far shoulder (but didn’t exit). Obviously held together way better than the ELDX.
Not one ELDX in either 6.5 CM or 7mm Rem Mag ever exited an animal in 6 total kills. Those bullets fragment all to heck when they hit. Efficient at killing but if you ever need to track… you’d be in trouble. Fortunately we haven’t needed to track because the bullets put them down. Most we’ve ever recovered is the cup base with some jacket still attached and a bit of lead in the base. The rest just blew all to hell. Have recovered jacket and lead fragments from meat fairly far off the “line” of the shot.
Oh yeah one of my boys shot a mountain lion at 530 yds with the 7MM Rem Mag 162 ELDX and yup, no exit.
If I had a do-over and was buying a youth gun today I would skip the 243 and go straight to the 6.5 CM. I’d still run the Tikka T3’s they are just fantastic values. Then for a recoil sensitive person maybe a braked 6.5 PRC or braked 308 or 7-08 for Elk under 350 yards or so. I would use the solids to increase effectiveness with the smaller calibers while keeping the recoil under control.
Largest exit wound I have ever seen was a CA blacktail hit with 308 Fed Fusion at maybe 75 yd. Almost softball sized exit - deer bounded maybe 30 yards before going down, dumping 1/2 cup of blood with each bound.
Hit a little CA blacktail with 30-06 factory hornady SST 165 gr square on the shoulder at about 75 yd, and the bullet just went splat. Did not penetrate past the shoulder blade on a maybe 105 lb buck. Recovered the jacket from the shoulder blade, and the shoulder blade was cracked but remains of the bullet did not penetrate to vitals. The deer 3-leg limped along with that leg hanging before I put one behind the shoulder and he went down. I will never hunt with SST again.
Point is, bullet selection really makes a difference.
Jim, are you using a bullet that tends to come apart and stay in the animal on purpose?
When you say solids, do you mean FMJ, or solid copper?
Thanks
Andy
The ELDX is an efficient killer because it grenades inside. I have read many threads with people complaining of no exit but they aren’t complaining that the animal wandered off to die somewhere else.
Haven’t had any animal go more than 20 yards with an ELDX foreward of the diaphragm. I like it because it does grenade/kill, and shot placement is not always optimal with youth/new hunters. Hell in the field shot placement is not always optimal for experienced hunters too.
Yes solids I mean solid copper like the Barnes TSX and TTSX.
So it may seem like something of a contradiction, but I’m trying to find an answer for the OP that involves the right combo of recoil/killing power/range.
Until we know more from the OP on ranges and accuracy capabilities it’s hard to hit that optimum so I guess I’m just giving him things to think about.
I remarked in a 6.5 Grendel vs 6.8 SPC thread that I thought market adoption would have been better for a single hybrid cartridge than both combined. The existing popularity of .270 Winchester would capture any pragmatic interest in this class, and those who like exclusivity would prefer something more exotic I suppose. The 25-06 is different enough to defend its niche.
Jim have you tried the solids in 308? I was reading on another forum where guys were pushing 130 TSX over 3000 FPS in the 308 and it was a hammer.
Not in 308 although I have a box I’ve been meaning to try. Only in 243.
also been meaning to try in 7mm Rem Mag.
Takes awhile to draw an elk tag these days. Having a lot of kids helps though.
Thank you for the explanation. I appreciate what you wrote and was seeking that clarification.
Andy
I just started loading the 130 TTSX in 308 at close to 270 130g velocities (3050 fps, if I recall).
Unlike traditional bullets, the no-lead ttsx has higher sectional density and ballistics for the 130g. (Traditional 130 grain in 308 is pretty stubby)
I’ve done similar in 708 and 280 with the 120g ttsx. (Though with 280 I can easily get 140s to the same speed as my classic 270 benchmark load of 130g at 3100fps)
The buck I shot a couple of weeks ago with 130g ttsx in 308 was through and through. At first glance not a big exit hole, but big enough (1").
Inside the lungs were vaporized goo. Deer ran maybe 15 yards.
I do not understand the comments about exploding. I want penetration with expansion, but want the bullet to stay intact. And generally want two holes. Lead free is a plus. (Son is a falconer and tiny fragments of lead are fatal to hawks.)
Decades ago I used to hunt with exposed lead spire points. I guess you could say they exploded. Bullets fragmented, often times just found the jacket.
I shifted to heavier constructed 165g grand slams and saw great results with deer dropping in their tracks. Similar early concept to the current bonded bullets and controlled expansion.
But with the option to get close to 270 trajectory in 308 with similar velocities, ttsx will be my pick for now.
BTW, I do not think of tsx and ttsx as “solids”. It threw me when posters above referred to them as solids. Solids are all gilding metal, but are not hollow point and are normally blunt/round nosed. (Heavy game calibers, anyway)
Also, I’m not a fan of going too light in caliber for youth / women rifles.
708/creedmoor/6.5x55 are as light as I would consider. All are mild recoil even in light rifles. Yet are still capable of elk size game.
The trick I learned with my kids is to go down one or two bullet weights and very mild loads that shoot to the same point of impact as the hunting load. Let them shoot to their hearts content, get some muscle memory on handling the rifle, and develop confidence.
And only after that work up to hunting loads.
No one notices recoil when hunting even on follow-up shots.
Just don’t put them on a bench hunched over with the rifle on bags with hunting loads as that’s kind of maximum recoil. Let them shoot sitting, standing, etc to develop confidence with the full power load.
So for deer + elk I’m still back to 270/280/30-06. With 280 being the sweet spot for bullet and ballistics for those two game.
Seven rem mag is a fine cartridge and certainly superior in ballistics, but it also has enough additional recoil I would not consider it for the OP’s use case.
Sectional density is the same, the lead-free bullet is simply longer.
I could be confused on that, though I thought longer bullets of the same rate had higher sectional density? It might be the long for caliber penetration effect I’m thinking of.
For sure the longer ttsx has significantly better ballistics than the 130 grain spirepoint and boat tails.
Yes the way I used the term “solids” is perhaps a misnomer. As you say, historically the term refers to big game bullets but with the evolution of solid copper bullets the nomenclature has not evolved with it. I think of TTSX and the like as “solids” simply because there is no jacket to separate/debond.
Sectional Density is simply the weight of the bullet divided by its frontal area. So the value of SD is independent of bullet length. If you stick with one metallurgy, as you get longer you get heavier so SD goes up. Change metals and that logic doesn’t apply.
I am now very interested in using 130 TTSX in 308, as I have some 308’s that are very accurate and this could be what gets them back in the game for me. What do you need for twist rate to stabilize them?
Also makes me wonder what would happen with 7-08 and a lighter/longer copper bullet.
Good advice here. I recall seeing some youth hunting loads in 7-08, 308, 270 etc that were a lighter bullet loaded at a reduced velocity. Non handloaders could try to find something like that for practice.
30-06 due to game size, bullet selection and loading options. 30-06 is almost perfect for any larger game in NA
Absolutely agree. I haven’t read this thread completely, but let me add that I have taken game all around the world. From varmints to eland and dangerous game. The selection of AVAILABLE choices is overwheming. Another item to consider is that the ammo can be found anywhere. Hence if you travel and your ammo is lost, you will be able to find a box of 30-06 in Alaska, Zimbabwe or Montana. Place your round where it needs to go and use the correct bullet for the game you seek.
Cheers, Steve