Real World Application of Training

It is said that we do not rise to the occasion, we fall back on our level of training. I’d like to hear first hand experiences of those who’ve been involved in altercations after taking a pistol or carbine class and how it influenced what happened.

Did you need to change magazines? Did you have to clear any malfunctions? From what I understand, mag changes and malfunctions are actually pretty rare but I’m wondering if anyone needed to do either and how training affected how you handled it.

I’m also interested in hearing from those who have been in altercations before and after taking a training class.

Basically, how effective do you feel your training was when faced with a situation in the real world and what did you learn from the experience?

Thanks

I’ve got a couple that come to mind. One is sorta reverse from what you’re asking, as it was more a revelation that came after the training. I was Point on an Entry Team for about 7-8 years. During that time, the training that we received was along the lines of tactics and mindsets of that time, and it involved 4-5 members of a stack doing a dynamic entry to take control of the structure. The realization I had, after working and being training in tactics more designed for two-man response at the Alliance Shoothouse with EAG, is that my entry tactics were ****ed up. I know now that I got lucky in my application of tactics. My tactics depended on the numbers to cover mistakes that I was making. The mistakes, my tactical priorities and the actual tactical imperatives became glaringly obvious once I didn’t have those numbers behind me. Lesson learned was to develop skills and tactics that still work with the lowest number of personnel possible, in many cases 2. Once you are competent with few, you become even stronger when you add help, instead of depending on help to make you strong.

Second one is one I can discuss because he gets sentenced next month and involves a disturbance I was sent to, and was something I was not able to wait for the second officer’s response. It was 15 minutes away yet, and I needed to interject myself into the situation for the safety of the victim/caller. The suspect was intoxicated and I later learned would feel no pain, but as he cycled his emotions the attack came. Lesson #1 is that attacks are sudden and violent. There are indicators that it is coming. Things like body language, statements, more body language. Learn these, keep your senses open. These indicators may help your OODA loop recognize what’s coming, and even though his action will still beat your reaction, you can be more ready to respond if you see it’s there. Legally a firearm is not always the first tool that you can use. I barely had time to call for help on the radio before grabbing the baton. Taser would have been ineffective due to close distance, plus the time involved to deploy. Lesson #2 is that someone can close a distance from across the room to you in a fraction of a second. It’s the same outside. Action beats reaction, and if someone has an impact weapon or bladed weapon, they will be on top of you before you can draw your firearm, shoot, and stop the threat. Train for this. Practice high stress incidents. When driving down the road, visualize various situations you could be in. Visualize you being under the influence of adrenaline, yet being able to be calm, to speak without panicked screaming. Use tone of voice to control, not to let them think you can be controlled from fear. When I listened to the radio tapes after this, my radio code for needing assistance sounded like I asking for the time of day. From my experience, even though I was getting amped up because his attack on me was imminent in about a second, my practicing and experience of handling stress allowed my radio transmission to be clear, concise. It was a tad too calm, as dispatch didn’t recognize was it was for a second, and it was only when I didn’t answer when they tried to clarify a few seconds later (Because my radio at that point was someplace else in the room) that they realized I was in something. They also had background knowledge that the suspect I was with was known for battery to LE, numerous times, with numerous other contacts going back years, something they didn’t clue me in on, but that’s another story.

You will revert to your training, until the situation changes. I deployed that baton and gave it all I was worth, as I was trained. There was nothing I could have done different at that point. I did strikes everyplace I could, without effect. A lot of fighting techniques involve causing pain to stop the attack. He didn’t feel pain. I later learned he had been walking on a broken ankle for the previous month without getting it checked out. Intoxication was a form of pain management for him. So the baton didn’t work, and he closed the distance to where that too became ineffective. It was assholes and elbows from then on, and the problem with that was that is something I don’t have a lot of training in.

His 5th battery to LE was committed. Lesson #3, when something is happening to you, channel those emotions. don’t get scared. Yes, that fear will be there. I was very concerned about my sidearm, and doing whatever it took to make sure I got home. This guy already made a statement he was going to F’in kill me, and I took him serious. I still was not quite to the legal level where I could use deadly force, but I was constantly waiting for the opening. Back to channeling, when I got punched in the jaw, I took those emotions, and I forced them into me getting PISSED!!! Get MAD! You need to stop the attack, and you need to deliver your own violence.

We were going assholes and elbows for what seemed like an eternity. I was getting tired. Where I got lucky, is that his intoxication also effected his balance, so there was a point where I took advantage of that and rode him momentum into a TV stand in the corner. Flat screen came falling down, missed his head literally by an inch. I remember thinking that would have been a nice way to end the fight, but dammit, it didn’t. While he was pinned, it was mostly only by my weight, and he was looking for an advantage again. He told me he was going to **** me up, had a burst of strength to push himself back up, but this time I was able to get his shirt over his head to get him off balance again and shove him under a end table in the other corner of the room. If he stood up again, I knew I had enough to justify deadly force and was going to use it. He had no feeling of pain, made statements of intent to cause me great bodily harm, had demonstrated the ability with his fighting skills, plus I was really getting tired, so I knew my ability to continue fighting was limited. During the fight, I always made sure that I kept my weapon hand relatively free and able to access my gun. Some guys won’t and will just go into the fight with both their fists. I knew pretty much from the start that wasn’t going to work, so I always made sure I was able to disengage enough to draw the gun if need be. I wasn’t going to get wrapped up in a groundfight and not able to get my sidearm. Lesson #4 is know your limitations, and how to still maintain an advantage. Don’t get in over your head.

This situation, while being an LE one, still has applications for LE or Citizen incidents. The legal standards, dynamics of what happens in a fight, and mindset issues don’t change. The difference may only be response, because as a citizen you won’t have the tools or ability to call for help like I did. This may allow for you to articulate the need for deadly force much sooner than I was. Know how to articulate what you do, and know what you need legally in your area. Know it forwards and backwards.

My backup arrived, and from the dispatch logs the fight with just me, from the time to my backup got there and we got him in handcuffs, was someplace between 5 to 10 minutes. We can’t tell which one it is, all I know is it felt longer than 10. Lesson #5. Urban LE are spoiled because they frequently can have help within a couple minutes. Lots of us don’t get that luxury, and I frequently have a 15-30 minute wait for help. I was fortunate that my backup happened to be about fifteen miles from me instead of over 30 at the office. I guarantee I would have had to shoot him if it was that long of a wait, because he constantly was trying to get back up after spurts of energy, and it was a matter of time before he did it again.

It took four Deputies to get him out to the ambulance, and he has since spent almost a year in a cell by himself because he is too violent to place with other inmates. He is awaiting sentencing where through a plea he will be going back to prison for a few years again. Lesson #6, take incidents that happen, and let them make you stronger. I’ve taken the opportunity to use elements of this and have shared them with new LE and people that were otherwise ignorant of some realities. I’ve been in the process of developing a training drill to develop decision making and mindsets to survive, and to break the mindset of depending on a Taser to solve all fights. Person that does this drill and chooses a Taser as their first response will discover quickly it’s not effective. Lesson #7 is taking training seriously. Study incidents like these, and make sure mentally you’re capable of surviving and winning. I can say for a fact, that my mental training is what helped me the most. Add experience to that, that’s then what helped me to actually win. I know several of the other LE that could have been sent to this, and my opinion is that because of either differing mindsets, focuses, training, experience, or physical limitations, many would have been either gravely hurt or even killed.

While this didn’t turn into a gunfight, I felt it was more applicable to what you were asking.

I don’t think you are going to get a lot people to talk about shootings because their missions were either classified or don’t want the world to know they were involved in a shooting.

One of the questions you asked was about clearing malfunctions and mag change. Most are pretty unlikely (especially as a Civy). With that said, knowing how to do those things (well) is similar to having car insurance. I am pretty sure that I am not going to get into an accident, but I have it anyway.

I (like most of us) like to be prepared for the worst possible thing. That is why we pay for insurance, keep an emergency fund, do maintenance on our cars and guns AND learn how to properly defend ourselves (hoping we never need to use it).

C4

BC520, that was an intense and very eye opening post. It answered questions I should have been asking and is humbling because it showing me I don’t know what I don’t know.

Grant, it’s not so much I want folks to just talk about shoot-outs, I’d like to know how the training affected their decision making and whether or not it gave them confidence. But again, I don’t know what I don’t know.

Part of my curiousity is derived from my own experience in training, which has nothing to do with fighting, just doing my job as an aviation technician. When I eas in the Air Force, a friend who was an Aircraft Fuel Technician was given a quick course, set in a foxhole and given an old AR to defend our airbase with during a NATO exercise. SAS troops were sent to test our defenses and of course, they easily evaded the poorly trained defenders and went crazy with the pyro-technics. When I heard that story, I realized that although I’d been shooting all my life and grew up with many war vets, if I’d been in that foxhole, I’d have done no better. I knew the only way I could fight was to do the primary job the Air Force trained me for- get the aircraft ready for the pilots. Nothing else.

I read someplace amatures talk gear- experts talk tactics and mindset- or something like that. I’m no expert but I’m here to listen and learn

I have experienced a draw/no shoot situation, but all I feel like I have to offer relating to training/practice/reps vs action is that my draw happened as I practice it, though I didn’t come up aiming. My sights followed my eyes, but I came up pointing rather than aiming, as I was staring & pointing at the other guy’s weapon.

I hope that people with more to offer give this thread some life. It has the potential to be a great learning resource.

I would think that common for a lot of people, especially in their first altercation. I can’t imagine any type of training that would be realistic enough to stop me from staring at a gun pointing at me. That being said, the instructor at the class I took in June, who has lots of combat and tons of training under his belt, said he never once remembers seeing the reticle or sights of his weapon in combat. He went into discussing muscle (read: mental) memory that basically explained if you practice acquiring that proper sight picture enough, your mind will do it before you’ve even consciously realized it. I’ve seen it discussed other places but it never really stuck with me until then because I was able to directly attempt it on the spot and after lots of rounds downrange, I felt like I could see what he was talking about. Again though, it’d be damn hard not to stare down that barrel pointing at you.