Then you have the people that don’t know who to listen to.
I tend to disagree. I know that I don’t know anything about being a sniper. I know that my CQB fighting skills are not where they should be. I do not know everything about the AR15, etc.
To me, it is recognizing that you have a weakness and need to fix that weakness.
Too many times on too many bubble gum forums, I see people telling others that they don’t need no “stinking” training as they already know how to fight and shoot. These people don’t know what they don’t know.
C4
Agree!
C4
Your welcome.
I have had the opportunity to be around several instructors that will admit when they don’t know something and others that will BS you to death.
I think they are afraid that by them not knowing the answer, the student will lose respect for them as an instructor. This isn’t the case (at least for me). It tells me tha they are human like everyone else and are always searching for the answer and aren’t going to waste my time with BS!
I will use LAV as an example. In his classes, when he gets a gear question (could be pricing, availability or compatibility) that he doesn’t know the answer and or the exact details, he will turn and ask my opinion on it. LAV is FULLY aware of what he does and doesn’t know (which there really isn’t much that he doesn’t know). That is one of the things I like about him and what makes him an excellent instructor.
C4
Ah yes, this is my favorite one. I don’t know chit about weapon XYZ, but I am going to listen to someone on the errornet that just bought a BM, and has fired 500rds in 2 years through it. Where as I can come along and tell them that the two leading instructors in the country (Rogers/Vickers) advise against a BM and they COMPLETELY ignore what I have said. I then tell them, based on my experience why they don’t want a BM and they tell me that I don’t know what I am talking about. It amazes me that they will take some guys opinion that barely knows which end of the gun the bullet comes out, but won’t take mine.
NOTE: BM was used as an example of what not to buy, but there are many others as well. 
C4
[QUOTE
NOTE: BM was used as an example of what not to buy, but there are many others as well.
C4[/QUOTE]
You mean like Oly;)
I have a good friend, great guy, career Army, fellow IDPA club member, without whom my carbine matches just wouldn’t run, but he makes me nuts with his purchases. He went to the local shop to get a complete lower, and was looking for LMT originally, but after talking to them and reading a couple of threads on TOS he decided that LMTs weren’t as good as Bushmasters. Fortunately his wife intervened, called me and asked for advice on a birthday present for him, and she bought him the LMT.
Fast-forward two weeks and what does he do? Calls up BM and orders one of their complete uppers to slap on it.:eek:
You mean like Oly;)[/QUOTE]
I love Oly, they make the best, mil-spec weapons on the planet!
C4
Good Lord! Tell him to STOP getting his weapons advise from TOS!! :rolleyes:
Its like asking the French on how to fight a war. Sure they will give you an answer, but it won’t be worth anything.
C4
More after consideration:
I know that I don’t know how reliable any particular firearm is until I put 1,000 trouble free rounds though it.
I know that I don’t know how any particular piece of gear will benefit me until I run it through a training class.
I know that I don’t yet understand the true dynamics of a gunfight. I know a lot of theory about violent encounters, but I have almost no experience.
I think the best I can say is that I know where the limits of my knowledge are. In the vast cloud of knowledge that exists I can’t possibly be aware of everything I am missing.
What I shoot for is trying to know when I am approaching the limitations of my knowledge on a topic and hopefully to shutup and listen if someone is competently navigating deeper waters than I’ve ventured into.
I’ve trained enough that I am pretty sure that I can make decent decisions in a gunfight should I be called upon to do so. I’ve also trained enough to realize how unpleasant and nasty gunfights are, and thus not getting into one should be a primary focus.
I do that because I do know what it feels like to get shot, and it sucketh mightily.
I understand your point.
I was going to start a thread that is somewhat similar in effect. I was going to ask what are your requirements. As in what scenarios do you feel you are likely to encounter, and how does your equipment meet those requirements.
It’s sort of the exact opposite way of going about what you’re getting at. We work of the known. We know our lives, our daily routine, our habits. We are, or should be, aware of our surroundings. Therefore, we should be aware of the most likely threats. So how do we go about planning for them? We also take risks. We make tradeoffs. For instance, you might never envision that you need sniper training, but theoretically you could be put in a situation where you need those skills. We make tradeoffs all the time. It doesn’t make us bad people. If it works out it doesn’t make us smart people. It just makes us people.
Now on to the point. I go to training to learn what I don’t know. To expose myself to new ideas and tactics that I would have never heard of without the training. I have learned many things in training that I had no clue about prior to attending the training. I literally learned what I do not know. Some things apply to my life. Some things likely will never apply to my life.
That said of the knowns, I know what my weaknesses are. I could, for instance, use a defensive tactics class, preferably one that focuses on ground fighting. I think it is quite likely given the distances that most crimes take place at that, I might be able to use those skills. And the last one I took was 10 years ago, so its time for a refresher.
Anyone that says I they know it all proved in that one statement that they don’t.
Does the manner in which you reach 1000 rounds trouble free play into your perception of reliability? For instance, if you take the gun out and shoot 20 rounds a day for 50 days, cleaning it after every range session, would you consider it reliable? Alternately, if you put fewer rounds down range in a very short amount of time would you consider that test enough to be reliable? Also how many guns have you had that failed a 1000 round trial period? To be honest, I don’t think I have had a gun that has failed in the first 1000 rounds that could not be traced to bad ammo or a bad magazine. Based on my experience, I’m more concerned about bad magazines than bad weapons.
I hope not! Then I’d really be in trouble!
What is a mystery to me is that some people don’t want to get any training.
I just don’t understand it. I always wanted to go.
I sent to Gunsite (well, API then) for info when I was 15, which was as soon as I heard there was such a place.
I didn’t get there then, but have tried to correct that later.
I can sorta see the reason of not having the money and/or time, but there often seems to be money for a new gun. I guess each person has to answer if the money would be better spent on training or another gun. I just wish they would answer themselves honestly.
I guess many people think they don’t need it, although I haven’t met anyone yet who couldn’t gain something.
And some don’t think anyone needs it.
After taking my first class, I mentioned to a “gun friend” of many years that I had gone. His response?
“Why? I can’t imagine you learned anything.”
WTF?!?! That was a few years ago, and I’m still trying to figure out what planet that one came from.
I told him that I learned more in the first 15 minutes on the range, and five rounds fired, than I did in all the time practicing on my own and competing in a half-dozen different types of matches, but I don’t think I ever convinced him.
I’ve tried to get him to go to a class with me, but he’s above that, I guess.
That’s OK. It’s his choice, as foolish as it is.
If either of us gets into a gunfight, I’ll use the training that I’m still getting.
He can hide behind his ego.
I personally look at what can happen that would require me to defend myself. I break them into three different areas. CCW encounters and natural disaster/civil unrest/home invasion. In the CCW situation, I will not have a long gun. In the other three, I will have a long gun. I try to train for these situations and have the correct gear/weapon for the job (if possible).
I agree that some training might never be used, but believe it better to have the skill and not use it than to need the skill and not have it.
C4
We all have our standards on the number of rounds needed to see if a weapon is reliable or not.
The AR is not really broken in till about 500rds.
My AR’s are not reliable to me till about the 3K mark.
I prefer that the 3K mark be realized through training classes if at all possible.
I believe that lack of lubrication and bad magazines attributes to about half of all malfunctions in the AR platform (maybe more). Why people ignore proper PM’s, and shoot junk or worn out mags has always escaped me.
C4
I guess you are telling me that I don’t know what I don’t know.
Your friend suffers from the question. He doesn’t know what he doesn’t know.
Vickers does this “ball and dummy” drill and you might fire 5 rounds in an hour. People will learn more in an hour than they most likely EVER knew about how to properly shoot a HG.
C4
I think one of the other issues that type “A” males have is that they cannot stand to have someone tell them what they don’t know. Its ok to be a type A, but don’t let it get in the way of learning something.
It is always easy to spot these types in a class. The instructor will walk up to them and ask WTF were they doing. The instructor will give correction on how to properly perform the task. The student seems to not only not hear what the instructor has said, but will continue to do it the wrong way again and again. These types of people have to learn things the hard way because their ego has gotten in the way from being able to learn the easy way.
C4
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