Question re CC laws and protocol - Mods, please move to GD.

General General Discussion
1

I’m a Texas CC holder and am taking a road trip to Missouri via Oklahoma and Kansas. According to my research, these states all have reciprocity with Texas.

My question is regarding protocol when my girlfriend, who is not licensed to CC, is driving and how to handle it in the event of being pulled over. Should she present my CC license, so the officer is aware we have a pistol in the car? Am I obligated to keep the pistol on my body when she’s driving?

I’m hazy on the laws in this situation and would appreciate clarification. I’d also appreciate tips on common courtesy in this situation. Even if the law doesn’t require me to declare my weapon, I could still end up with a pissed off trooper if I don’t declare and he finds out I’m holding during our encounter.

2

Moved to GD as per OP’s request.

As far as your question goes, I would recommend contacting the state police in the states you intend to travel through and ask them.

3

First off, do not take this the wrong way, it’s not meant to be assholish. Who gives a shit what some trooper or cop thinks? As long as you are LEGAL, that’s all that matters.

What you should do is go to a website and determine if that state requires you to disclose that you are carrying or that you have a weapon in the vehicle. In Arizona for example because of our “new” CCW laws, if you are asked by an officer you must disclose it. Previously there was no such provision (AFAIK).

You could contact the State LE agency, but who is to say that you don’t come across some officer who is not so pro-2A friendly and he gives you bogus info?

www.handgunlaw.us is a pretty good resource and will at least point you in the right direction as they sometimes provide the ordinances. You can then Google it and find out first hand.

4

This. Know the law before you go…and I mean KNOW, not “Bob whose brother is a cop in Missouri said…” and if you’re really careful, you could print out the pertinent sections of each state you’ll be passing through’s criminal code and put them in a folder to take with you.

And in re “declaring” a firearm. If you don’t HAVE to by law, STFU about it. You aren’t pointing yours at him, so he shouldn’t be pointing yours at you - and you don’t OWE anyone an explanation of why you’re carrying a gun. Don’t invite the man into your life unnecessarily, and telling every cop you interact with, “Hey, by the way, I have a gun” is almost the textbook definition of that.

5

I have heard conflicting opinions with respect to this subject. While going through the paperwork to obtain a Utah concealed carry permit, the individual conducting the class stated that some states have concealed carry permit holders cross-referenced with driver’s license and/or vehicle registration. This enables an officer conducting a routine traffic stop to be informed that the individual they are interacting with holds a concealed carry permit. I would be interested to hear from any LEOs who might confirm or deny that statement.

Regardless, the general consensus in the concealed carry courses I have attended has been that a citizen has no obligation to inform an LEO they are carrying unless that information is specifically requested. However, if I were asked for vehicle registration/insurance and had a handgun in the glove box, I’m going to place both my hands on the wheel, tell the LEO I have a firearm in the glove box, and wait for him to tell me how he wishes to proceed. Same deal if I’m asked to exit the vehicle, am carrying concealed, and there is a possibility the LEO will either detect the firearm or find it during a pat down. I have no interest in surprising an officer and having a routine traffic stop turn into something altogether different.

6

False. Again, some states REQUIRE you to tell an officer when you are stopped. That means you need to make yourself aware of a particular states’ requirements. Some states may have that information, but I don’t think it is across the board.

I don’t put my weapon in any spot that I need to access if I am stopped just for that reason. Falls into the prior planning department. I am either wearing it or I have it stashed somewhere else. If I am put in a position where that I have to disclose it then I will otherwise, I keep my mouth shut.

7

I’m not a cop, but I do know for a fact (doing ride-a-longs with my town PD) that in Ohio your CHL information will pop up when a license plate registered to you is run through the MDT or called in to dispatch. I suspect it also shows up when they run your DL.

Your information is incorrect. In several states (Ohio and Michigan being two) the law forces you to declare, as soon as possible during an official interaction with LE, that you have a CHL and are armed if you are indeed so. In Ohio specifically, that requirement is not limited to you being a driver. You have to declare that you are carrying even if you are a passenger in a MV involved in a traffic stop, or even you are involved with LE for official business (investigating a crime for instance) when no motor vehicles are involved. In Ohio, commonsensically, you need not say anything if you have a CHL and are NOT armed at the time of the encounter with LE.

I would not disagree with those courses of action if I found myself in the same position in a state where declaration of a concealed handgun is not mandatory.

I strongly suggest you visit handgunlaw.us and use the information there and the links to actual state statutes and learn and understand EVERYTHING there is to know about carrying a concealed handgun in every state you will visit.

8

There are several threads that discuss the merits and liabilities of disclosing armed/CCW status to LE during contacts. No need to rehash them here.

Whether you disclose or not, don’t put the gun anywhere you’re apt to need to go during a contact with LE. Carry on the body of the CCW holder to avoid any possible issues of common access if travelling companions are not CCW holders.

There are some states which link CCW data to DL/ID data. I don’t recall which ones. This can done as a flag in a misc data field, or a tie-in in a local CAD system. The latter is more common.

As IG notes, take care with getting advice from random cops regardless of muni, county, or state. It will range from outstanding to completely worthless, depending on the officer’s knowledge, experience, frame of reference, and personal opinions. The responses you receive will also be affected by the specific questions you ask, phrasings, appearances, and other misc perceptions of you.

Do a pre-trip inspection of your vehicle prior to departing and at every fuel stop. Check your plates, function of your lights, etc, and obey all laws.

Behave yourself in every conceivable way on the trip.

Parting thought: People worry far, far too much about traffic stops and what happens in contact with LE on them. The LEO will know in the first minute how long he wants to spend with you and whether or not you interest him. Unless you display certain variables that make you worthy of attention, your stop is a brief and perfunctory exercise in paperwork. Look dull and boring. Look like a well-groomed, sober, middle class tourist on vacation and the cop will likely want to terminate the stop as fast as he can get scratch out your paper or give you your verbal.

9

NC also require you to inform a LEO if you have a weapon. I have family in the UP of Michigan and have travelled back and forth with my weapon. Thankfully I have not been pulled over yet. If it does happen then I’ll inform the officer and proceed from there.

10

Thanks for the correction. I think things are a little more lax out west, at least until you hit the Pacific coast. :smile:

Funny how the old adage “do your homework” applies well beyond your school years.

11

When discussing requirements to declare a CCW and armed status, keep this in mind: States generally only encumber and obligate their own licensees, within their own borders.

If you are traveling through a state that requires disclosure, but hold a permit from elsewhere, whether or not your permit requires you to disclose, it’s unlikely any obligation to do so exists.

In most statutory constructions, the requirement to disclose usually includes language stating something like bearers/licensees with “permits issued under this section/chapter/code”, “permits issued by (entity)”, and similar wording. That language applies to that state’s permit only.

Similarly, some states have language specifying that disclosure must be made to their own officers. There will be language such as “…must inform any officer/agent/employee of this state or its political subdivisions.”

Take Oklahoma as an example. Oklahoma’s construction of its duty to disclose pertains only to bearers of the OK permit, and only OK LEOs. Emphasis mine.

§21-1290.8.

C. It shall be unlawful for any person to fail or refuse to identify the fact that the person is in actual possession of a concealed handgun pursuant to the authority of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act when the person first comes into contact with any law enforcement officer of this state or its political subdivisions or a federal law enforcement officer during the course of any arrest, detainment, or routine traffic stop. Any violation of the provisions of this subsection shall, upon conviction, be a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not exceeding Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), by imprisonment in the county jail for a period not to exceed ninety (90) days, or by both such fine and imprisonment. In addition to any criminal prosecution for a violation of the provisions of this subsection, the licensee shall be subject to an administrative fine of Fifty Dollars ($50.00), upon a hearing and determination by the Bureau that the person is in violation of the provisions of this subsection.

Nebraska also gives us a good example. Statutes are under Neb. Rev. Stat. § 69-244, promulgated rules under Title 272 NAC 2.

019.02 A permit holder carrying a concealed handgun who is officially contacted by any peace officer or emergency services personnel must immediately inform the peace officer or emergency service personnel of the concealed handgun unless physically unable to do so.

Definitions clarify further:

002.09 “Permit” shall mean a license to carry a concealed handgun issued to an applicant meeting all of the requirements for a permit found in Section 005 of these regulations. The Permit is the property of the Nebraska State Patrol.

002.12 “Peace officer” shall mean any town marshal, chief of police or local police officer, sheriff or deputy sheriff, the Superintendent of Law Enforcement and Public Safety, any officer of the Nebraska State Patrol, any member of the National Guard on active service by direction of the Governor during periods of emergency or civil disorder, any Game and Parks Commission conservation officer, and all other persons with similar authority to make arrests.

002.06 “Emergency services personnel” shall mean a volunteer or paid firefighter or rescue squad member or a person licensed to provide emergency medical services pursuant to the Emergency Medical Services Practice Act (Nebraska Revised Statutes §§ 38-1201 et seq.).

Therefore, if I’m a Cornhusker carrying in OK on my NE CCW, or if I’m from anywhere else carrying in NE on my UT non-resident CFP, I’m not obligated to say anything.

Other examples exist as well, but those came to mind right away.

12

Ohio is not among them

ORC 2923.12
(B) No person who has been issued a license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun under section 2923.125 or 2923.1213 of the Revised Code or a license to carry a concealed handgun that was issued by another state with which the attorney general has entered into a reciprocity agreement under section 109.69 of the Revised Code shall do any of the following:

(1) If the person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose and is carrying a concealed handgun, fail to promptly inform any law enforcement officer who approaches the person after the person has been stopped that the person has been issued a license or temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun and that the person then is carrying a concealed handgun;

13

I realize the pros and cons of a federal concealed carry permit have been discussed elsewhere, but the abundant discrepancies from one state to the next (and the confusion they engender) provide one strong argument in favor of a federal permit or some form of uniform reciprocity agreement with consistent guidelines.

14

The lack of constitutional authority for the federal government to regulate intrastate firearm matters is an even stronger argument against a federal permit or some form of uniform reciprocity agreement with consistent guidelines.

The only people who get confused about carrying concealed handguns across state lines are those who either can’t read or can’t accept that things elsewhere may not work exactly like they do at home.

The information is all right here (on the internet) from the prime sources (state laws).

15

Good find, thanks. Anyone got any more so written?

16

We have a right to keep and bear arms. How that is interpreted is unfortunately not always clear to some. However, as gun owners and more so as citizens when are armed, we have an obligation to make ourselves familiar with the law. Just like we have an obligation to make sure we know how to use our weapons.

That means doing research. When I carry out of state I make every attempt to familiarize myself with the laws of the locale I am visiting.

Until the federal government makes some law that requires states to recognize CCW’s from other states (just like we do drivers licenses, marriage certificates, etc…) we are encumbered with having to do this. Yeah, it sucks.

17

From the Arizona Revised Statutes;

[b]13-3102. Misconduct involving weapons; defenses; classification; definitions

A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:

(b) When contacted by a law enforcement officer and failing to accurately answer the officer if the officer asks whether the person is carrying a concealed deadly weapon[/b]