I was looking at the -Home Defense Long Guns- sticky and noticed that 12 ga buck beats out 5.56 in pure wound trama at close range. Where does 7.62x39 (Hornady’s 123-grain Spire Point ,VMAX, and the rest of the high end good stuff), 6.8x43, and .308 fit into the mix? I’m guessing .308 beats out 6.8x43 and 7.62x39 but is 00 buck above, below, or equal to 6.8x43 and 7.62x39?
If you are strickly looking at home defense, then the 12 gauge is ideal. It has relatively low penetration through home materials, generates a lot of tissue damage, and the shot pattern helps to make up for lack of shot precision(IE, a torso shot with buck is more likely to hit something important than a 7.62). It’s much harder to hit someone who may be moving around in low light than you think. Probably why the shotgun is still widely used around the world even though it is a pretty ancient weapon design.
False.
Courtesy of DocGKR.
I think this is being over-thought. Any of the listed rounds would wreck a bad guy if properly placed.
I’m not sure that quoting the results of bullets in a flesh medium is really the right example to use when countering an argument about penetration in building materials.
Luckily the Box of truth tests building materials:
5.56 versus 12 gauge. That shows lower penetration from the 12 gauge than most handguns and 5.56…
+1, use the platform you are comfortable with. I am just as likely to use a 12 gauge or 6.8 SPC and wouldn’t hesitate using one of my 5.56’s…
Please actually READ what Molon posted before starting to type again!:rolleyes:
The photo clearly states "TYPICAL WOUND PROFILE AFTER PENETRATING INTERIOR WALL INTERMEDIATE BARRIER
Please actually READ what Molon was replying to before posting again. The OP said"relatively low penetration through home materials"
molon responded with an assessment of how rounds penetrated in gel. Gel is not building material. I linked to tests against building materials.
OK…the image shows penetration of gel AFTER it has penetrated an intermediate barrier. What that image shows is that after going through an interior wall, 12 gauge penetrates ballistic gel nearly just as much as the other projectiles listed. So 12 gauge does NOT offer relatively low penetration through home materials. 12 gauge penetrated your building material just as much as the others, and THEN penetrated the gel.
I’m not factoring in household materials. I was just looking for straight shots and the possible/average damage done.
Oh, and I fully get the low light moving target bit. Its hard enough to hit it on a semi lit range with the target only moving forwards or backward at fast walk speeds. Not to mention the possibility of the target shooting back! I guess I’m settling on a HD shottie since it seems the best. Kinda a one trick pony but a good one.
What’s the longest shot you are going to get in your house?
How much does your shotgun spread at that distance?
The answer to those two questions will tell you why “Just point the shotgun and shoot, y’ain’t gotta aim!” is bullshit.
… ok.
Agree… I would not expect to have to shoot indoors beyond 30 feet, and I only get about a 4 inch spread at that distance with a cylinder bore 18 inch barrel and Winchester Ranger 9-pellet ‘Low Recoil’ RA1200.
With non-LE stuff you still will likely only get 7-8 inches of spread at the most. That is a fairly small circle at 30 feet. Remember, even a handgun doesn’t typically group a lot smaller in a combat scenaro. Go outside sometime and set up a cardboard circle the diameters I just mentioned, and then sight at it with your shotgun at 30 feet… it is ‘eye-opening’…
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Shotguns may or may not penetrate more or less through typical dry wall used in houses and apartments. Either way, it’s more than one or two walls, and still has enough energy to kill a person. Anything that can’t penetrate simple walls probably won’t penetrate a jacket then some ribs.
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While shotguns are easier to use against small, fast moving targets like birds or clays that is with bird shot with a large spread, at longer distances. Within even a large house, buckshot at 25 yards is still under 8 inches, so it does require aiming, and it isn’t any easier to hit with than a carbine.
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Followup shots are easier and faster with a 5.56 than with a shotgun, even a light kicking 20 gauge semi-auto. Important when multiple attackers, or someone drugged up is being engaged. And if you are actually having to deal with someone, it’s most likely at night and they are more violent than a normal burglar. Very, very few break ins happen at night. Burglars tend to want to get in and out without meeting with anyone. Those that break in at night are usually expecting to meet with the resident and are the more violent sort. Or are just not quite right in the head, naturally or chemically induced.
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I have years of experience with the AR and have fired tens of thousands of rounds through them (only a few thousand out of my own pocket, most was in the Army) so I’m just more used to handling an AR. The controls are ingrained in my head. To the point that using anything else under stress would be a risk for me. Even at the range a two weeks ago I was trying to place my 11-87 on fire like I would with an AR. It took couple swipes before my brain kicked in and I realized what I was doing. For me it’s also a case of muscle memory. Might not happen as much with my Mossberg 500 since it’s more different that it doesn’t seem right in my hands and I know that it’s different. The 11-87 has a pistol grip and ghost ring sights so it feels more like what I’m used to and I don’t think about what I’m doing. The 500 is a standard model with no pistol grip and a bead sight, so it might make me realize I’m shooting a different weapon. Of course it would probably be just as slow since I’m having to actually think my way through what I’m doing instead of just doing it.
Unicorn,
Good info!!! Thank you for helping us put more thought into this stuff.
I agree with your overall concerns. When our group goes shooting, we don’t limit ourselves to single paper targets, etc… in fact, we rarely shoot single paper targets unless we are sighting-in. We spend at least part of our time moving fast and shooting at multiple targets, and reloads are practiced. To me, it is the only way to get the ‘bugs’ out. When I find something that doesn’t work well, I make a change. The most recent was a simple Tru-Glo sight on the shotgun to make aiming easier and lower my POI.