Pretty good article on FBI switch to 9mm (now w/ RFP)

General Firearms Handguns - Semi Auto
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http://p2t2solutions.com/fbi-finally-decides-on-standard-service-rounds-for-its-use/

Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners

· Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades

· Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore

· Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best

· In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high ting incident likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident

· Handgun stopping power is simply a myth

· The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)

· LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident

· Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)

· 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

· 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)

· The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)

· There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

· Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers

It goes into more detail in the article.

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As local, county and state agencies secure funding to replace their service pistols, I believe you will see most of them follow suite.

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A good read with details people know if they researched, but many still believe in “stopping power” and other mythology. Only claim in that articles that raised an eyebrow was:

" 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI"

That is news to me. It was my understanding that although the terminal ballistics are now very similar, and the net benefits of the 9mm outweigh the potential cons, there’ superior terminal ballistics from .40, .45. Again, the differences now so minor, and the benefits of 9mm (low recoil, increased capacity, etc) makes the larger service calibers net benefit, goes to the 9mm.

That all things being equal - gun, design/brand of ammo, barrel length, etc - the 9mm out performs those other calibers in standardized testing? I’d need to see a source/cite on that one as it does not jibe. Maybe I’m out of the loop of latest greatest testing data.

PS, did you read some of the comments after that article? Just when you think people are not that ignorant of what’s now considered “no duh” info, they prove you wrong. You have to read some of them to believe it. Such as:

"The army selected the 1911 for stopping power, I have been shooting this gun with 230 gr hardball for 35 years, placement is required with only 7 in the mag but it only takes one center mass."

Yup, that’s a real comment…

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There are certain topics in which I avoid reading comments for fear of bursting a blood vessel or wasting all day replying to people. Caliber debates among random strangers on a news article is one of those things.

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I totally agree with them going with 9mm. Newer projectiles have all but put to rest that the 9mm doesnt have the power to get the job done. With less recoil and ability to get on target faster it definitely has potential especially in the civilian market.

I had this discussion with a trainer that ditched his .40 to go back to the 9mm concept. I still believe in to each their own,i have a .45 etc that i use all the time and was my go to pistol caliber. But i have also switched back to the 9mm after 25 years. I tryed the .40 but if iam gona deal with that kind of recoil ill go back to a wheel gun in .357 magnum. Multiple strikes from any of them will more than get the job done these days. The only down fall to the 9mm is if not loaded with some kind of hollow point , if fmj are used,the over penetration is really bad. But so are the .40 and .357 etc

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Interesting that they say 70-80% of shots don’t connect. Wouldn’t it seem logical that if that was the case, you’d want the hit to be with something substantial? It’s just my opinion, but I don’t put a lot of stock in what the FBI “experts” try to sell at times. Personally, I’d give more creedence to the Border Patrols opinions on such things. Again, just an opinion. 12-18 inches is what the FBI considers an effective wound channel? Holy crap! Who are they shooting! I always thought the desired performance was for the bullet to expend its energy IN the target, not punch all the way through. Oh well, they’re the FBI and have all the answers.

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  1. Clearly they’re saying that 9mm is substantial…

  2. Have you measured your A-P diameter? It’s larger than you think.

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I think they are insinuating that a lower recoiling round would be more controllable, and lead to a higher hit percentage. Reference the 3rd bullet from the bottom.:confused:

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12-18" in gel.

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The FBI didn’t just pull the 12”-18” penetration requirement out of their a$$. While the anteroposterior diameter of the thorax of an average adult American male is approximately 9.5”, gun fights tend to be rather unpredictable by nature, so you might just need more penetration than that 9.5”. You can’t always count on the bad guy to be squarely facing you, with his hands at his side and holding perfectly still while allowing you to shoot at him (and all the while the bad guy not shooting back at you.)

If a bullet has to penetrate the bad guys right arm before continuing to travel into the thorax of the bad guy, (say from a lateral shot while the bad guy is trying to exit a vehicle in order to kill you) you’re going to need, on average, 12” of penetration to perforate the heart; more penetration of you want the bullet to pass through the left ventricle.

During the infamous 1986 FBI Miami Shootout, one of the opening shots in the gunfight (fired by FBI Special Agent Dove) hit Platt in the right arm, continued into Platt’s thorax, but stopped just short of Platt’s heart; due to the limited penetration of the 9mm Winchester SilverTip ammunition that was issued at the time. Had the bullet penetrated just a few more inches, it would have perforated Platt’s heart. How many lives might have been saved that day if the 9mm ammunition used by the FBI agents that day had met a penetration requirement of 12”-18”?

…

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Lower recoil means faster accurate follow up shots means quicker hits on target.

More ammo means you’ll likely hit the target before having to reload, or hit the target more before having to reload, or maybe not even have to reload.

.45 ACP and .40 S&W don’t make a much of difference (if any) in damage to a human body when compared to 9mm.

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Did they justify ditching the 9mm just based on Platt or more of the shooters? Either way, their overreaction is interesting based on the WST and a couple of inches.

If they would have went to the drawing board and gotten the bullet design to penetrate the gel further it would be interesting to see if the 10mm and 40S&W would have ever come to be.

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Presumably Glock or S&W are the safe bets?:

https://www.fbo.gov/utils/view?id=b572bfc31492380c0534465de4c674dc

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G17/19

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Exactly.

It reads like a description of a Glock 17 and 19.

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The FBI believed they were outgunned in Miami, while it is true they were outgunned - a Ruger Mini-14 and a revolver (IIRC) compared to several auto-pistols, a shotgun, a couple of small frame revolvers (J-frame), and at least one K frame - they were more victims of attitude and training.

So, you are hunting two bank robbers showing an escalating pattern of violence in their robberies, that you know have killed at least one person, and left another for dead in the everglades, who you know, based on evidence at the scenes of those two shootings, have expended a considerable amount of ammo in weapons practice, and you leave your shotguns in the back seats of your cars, leave all M16’s in the safe cause it’s a pain in the ass to get them out (except one - that agent was out of his car when this all went down) and are not wearing vests.

That is an attitude problem, those guys expected compliance when the bad guys were faced with the FBI and it didn’t go that way.

So after that tragedy, much to their credit, the FBI did institute some changes in training, including high-risk vehicle stop training. They also listened, cries from the field were for more firepower (autos versus revolvers) and more stopping power. John Hall, head of the FTU, was there with his 10mm Delta Elite. I met Mr.Hall on a trip to the FBI Academy and found him to be a true gentleman. Of course this might be due to the fact that he gave me a 10mm Smith, a couple hundred rounds of 10mm and then took me to an unoccupied range and let me shoot. Hall is a great legal mind, he and Urey Patrick have been driving forces in the education of law enforcement officers nationwide on use-of-force issues.

Those guys, Hall in particular, were completely sincere in selecting what they felt was the best cartridge for the FBI - then the problem became building a gun around it. At the time their studies were cutting edge, well beyond anything else in existence.

Here is an article on the acceptance/development of the 10mm by the FBI - http://www.pointshooting.com/1a10mm.htm

The downloaded 10mm obviously morphed into the .40, which I had no problem shooting for years, until I came to the conclusion I can shoot a whole bunch more 9mm markedly faster.

Obviously, the FBI feels the same.

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I know it won’t make a difference, but it would be nice if h&k saw the FBIs request for a new 9mm as a reason to produce a compact vp9. I can dream.

And then I read
C.4.6.c It is not allowable to have a magazine catch which is activated by a downward movement.

I did notice that it says finger grooves are not allowed.

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What? The fbi uses ammo, not design it. It took almost 10 years to get 9mm to perform on the same level as other cals. The tech had to develop over time.

Thats like saying if the iPhone 6 was invented in 08, would they have ever made a 4s?

9 is definately the way to go now, but that was not always the case. A couple of inches in the wrong direction is huge.

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Our agency stopped using Winchester Silvertip after a shooting incident in which the hollow points were filled with jacket material and they did not open up. Some projectiles passed all the way through the suspect and were stopped by the other side of the jacket. Then we transitioned to a +P+ round that had it’s own issues.

The justification to transition to .40 S&W was it penetrated auto glass better than the 9mm ammunition offered at the time. A transition back to 9mm is being considered.

The current offerings in 9mm defensive ammunition are light years ahead of what was offered 30 years ago, so it comes as no surprise that the FBI is leaning in this direction.

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Looks like the FBI wants the pistols to be available (as an option) in Flat Dark Earth and Ranger Green.