I have cross trained with both asian style martial artists and american boxers. I can sum them up as such… 1. Martial artists - Most lethal techniques combined with substandard conditioning and lack of practical experience. 2. Boxers - Superb conditioning, real time experience but hindered by confines of sport. I love to cross train the two. I enjoy the expression on a black belts face when he gets knocked on his ass for the first time. I also enjoy the look of horror when a boxer remains standing after 3 really good hits. I also enjoy a boxers frustration when a talented martial artist takes him outside his realm of experience. I love watching boxers have their legs attacked. I love to see them locked, chocked and pinned out. Because, ultimately the above helps both parties.
Martial artists are incredibly skilled with a dangerous arsenal of technique. But rarely do they train in a practical way. Seldom are they as conditioned as a boxer. They usually cannot take real hits and stay in the fight. They often have never really hit anybody before. This is because most martial arts are studied in a non contact academic manner. Kinda like learning to swim but never getting in the water. Boxers are in shape. But they have a woefully inadequate arsenal. Their defense is based on the presumption of 10-14oz. gloves for additional coverage, they don’t block. They have a mere handful of strikes that become predictable regardless of the combination used. And they have no finishing techniques. If they cannot land a knockout, they cannot win. So if you are a martial artist, train like a boxer. If you are a boxer, fight like a martial artist.
Another item of note. Boxers condition their entire bodies EXCEPT for their hands. Martial artists coincidentally often condition ONLY their hands. Funny huh… Result is boxers who get into real fights almost always break their hands. Without wraps and gloves to protect them boxers generate far more power and force than their hands can sustain. Martial artists on the other hand, generally generate much less power but manage a greater capacity for destruction of the target. And here is the secret…
It’s called a “makiwara” and is designed to build hard hands for striking without sustaining injury.
They are simply made and incredibly effective. Most will skip the “straw makiwara” route for simpler designs. I use (2) 2x4s one 6ft. and one 3 ft. I screw them together to support each other but let the top unsupported 3 ft. section flex. I bury them 1 1/2 feet below ground ending up with a 4 1/2 ft. tall target. For the striking area I use a 1" rubber pad inside a large towel folded and wrapped around the top of the post. This gives me the rubber target on the striking face and several layers of thick towel. I then bind the towel in place by cords at the top and bottom of the padded area. You can protect it from rain by placing a bucket over it.
When struck correctly you flex the 2x4 with each strike as you attempt to penetrate the target with driving force. After several reps it feels as if you are striking bare wood. Use extreme caution at first as the wrist and knuckles will be vulnerable and prone to injury. This is a gradual process of hardening the hands. The idea is moderate continuous reps not a few full power strikes.
I do 500 strikes a day and have done so almost uninterrupted for the last 10 years. Though my reps used to be only 200 (100 each hand). Again be very careful. Soreness is normal, blood splatter is not. 50 moderate strikes is more beneficial than 10 massive hits.
Beginners will probably want to use a single 2x4 for the striking post. This gives reasonable flex with good resistance. I have used 3x4 fence posts but found them unable to be flexed. The result is the energy is returned to the body causing frequent injury. I only use 3x4s for conditioning the feet as kicks are quickly withdrawn from the target surface. 3x4s also do not adsorb as much use and eventually snap at the base. 2x4s and double 2x4s will also eventually break but are easily replaced for a few dollars.
Exactly. I was (and still am) a martial artist (black belt in TKD). However, I was fortunate to have a great instructor who, although eccentric, was hardcore enough to put his students through a rigorous schedule of training in a more traditional style of training. However, TKD by it’s nature is very focused on kicks. So guess what? I did what you have already suggested: I trained like a boxer. All of the folks I sparred with hated me because I could land hard punches when they were expecting kicks.
Later on I tried BJJ. I’m no expert by any means (this was around the time life started to get extremely busy with my first “big boy” job). The MMA guys weren’t overly impressed with the TKD (TKD doesn’t have too many practical tools, but there are a few), but I did get compliments on my boxing.
It amazes me how many martial artists cannot figure that out. I constantly hear “this school sucks” because they don’t train realistically. The reality is a serious minded student can train “realistically” in almost any school that teaches effective methods.
And just as you discovered, even if you are in a good school, there will be those who still don’t train very realistically and it shows when it comes to sparring.
Of course a reality minded instructor can go a long way towards creating a proper training atmosphere. On this subject I always think back to one of my Judo instructors. Despite teaching a “sport” lineage of Kodokan Judo once a week classes were done in street clothes outside in the parking lot in front of the dojo.
Either you could do breakfalls correctly or you got hurt. Parking lots are not a very forgiving surface for mistakes. Simple things like learning to thread in for a choke or hold became complicated to do without giving yourself a serious case of road rash. Learning to get good holds on a guy wearing only a t shirt made the most simple technique difficult.
I can still remember him telling us “If you ever have to protect yourself, this is probably how you will be dressed, it will probably be outside and it will probably be on a hard surface…so you don’t want to be doing it for the first time without being familiar with such an environment.”
Granted, he did have a problem with student retention. But the students he had were all actual martial artists. We didn’t have any “Judo players”, at least not for very long.
I’ve found that Muay Thai and BJJ provide the necessary balance of technique, aggressive sparring for real world applications, and conditioning.
I generally divide my training evenly between BJJ and Muay Thai. About a total of 8-10 hrs per week. About 70% of is this is drilling technique with the remaining 30% being spent clinching / rolling. Both marital arts are an OK (meh) conditioning session, so I try to get another 4 hours per week of crossfit, weights, or running.
Having said that, I understand that many working professionals do not have 12-14 hours per week to dedicate to exercise and MMA, and my life takes turns where I have to cut back. If this is the case, I recommend that you focus on the MMA classes and drop the extracurricular conditioning. However, try to maximize the conditioning of the classes by taking less rest between rounds, shadow boxing during rest times, doing push-ups/pull-ups/sit-ups during breaks in instruction, and overall maintaining a high level of intensity. You can also get inventive during the daily routine by taking 10-15 minutes to sprint the stairs at work, bike/run to work, etc.
Send me a PM if you are ever traveling through Charlotte, NC. I train at East Coast Fighter (http://eastcoastfighter.com/default.aspx). We have daily AM and PM classes in both disciplines as well as a conditioning program (I use my own due to work constraints). The pedigree of our instructors and top fighters is excellent. We can also get some range time at Charlotte Rifle & Pistol Club or Mecklenburg Wildlife Club if your in town for a couple of days.
Your Judo instructor sounded a lot like my TKD instructor. He was into the art no doubt, but he also was a realist about it. If you want to be effective, then you can’t just “game it” anymore.
This thread seems very similar to another one regarding martial arts.
IIRC, Steyr was also there.
In my current school we do not spend much time on hardening, since we are a self-defense only. As such, most engagements will be short enough. There is plenty of bag/focus glove time, tough.
However, I resent lack of breakfall training. During training, getting sore from hitting the tatami is one thing but if get slammed in the ground when things get serious, it would get pretty ugly.
Steyr, let me ask, how effective was the breakfall over tarmac/concrete?
If you feel if is effective, I might hit some Judo Dojo just for it.
Also, I would like to suggest you try Panuntukan (Filipino Boxing) for the striking arts, there’s plenty of boxing, plenty of elbow, and no gloves, so you learn to effectively block, parry and aggressively parry incoming strikes. “Remove the fangs of the snake”
I try to squeeze in 2 hours of muay thai sparring, 2 hours of bjj rolling, and 1-2 hours of mma sparring a week in addition to about 3-4 hours of drilling/technique.
Admittedly, depending how hard you go, over 2 hours sparring in a week can take quite a toll on your body.
Quite honestly there is no painless way to hit a hard surface. A basketball court was another fun training surface my old Judo instructor loved.
Basically you have two choices when going at it on pavement or a similar surface.
A. Correct breakfalls which usually hurt and sometimes accompanied by minor injury.
B. Significant pain, injury and possible death.
There have been maybe a handful of times I was taken to the ground on such a surface where the breakfall was so clean I was able to zero out almost all of the impact energy. It is a rare event.
But having seen lots of people who don’t know how to do it, and the resulting spiked knees, elbows and bounced heads, I’m really thankful I had a teacher who made us learn such skills.
They have also benefited me when falling off of fences, buildings or when just falling on my ass when walking on ice. Learning how to go to ground without wrecking myself is probably one of the most useful things I have ever learned in any martial art.
I have studied the Filipino systems of Arnis De Mano and Kali, what many don’t know is they have an unarmed boxing, checking, trapping system and are not just stick and knife fighting.
Tennis and basketball courts - ouch! But I think that it is a great idea so that you know what to expect.
As an aside, I generally start a fight with a low kick to the opponents lead leg or inside thigh if they are more squared in a thai kicking stance. In the cage, this helps set my range when I see how they react. It also begins the process of breaking down a wrestler’s shoot attempts. On the street, this is VERY effective against an unskilled opponent who enters your range thinking that you are going to play the posturing game. Land a good one and they will look down at your legs. You can imagine what happens next…
One of the worst things, albeit beneficial, about Judo class on the indoor basketball courts was the fact that we would be doing body pulls, where you lay on your stomach and pull yourself across the floor with only your arms and then roll on your back and go back pulling with your shoulders, up and down the length of the court about 10 times. You truly felt as if you were going to die.
Effective, but be cautious not to limit yourself to the confines of “sport.” Given the same opportunity I’d much prefer to destroy the lead knee and end my attackers capacity to fight. Typically I will take the knee, eyes or throat depending upon whichever is presented first.
I have little interest in a drawn out fight if I can avoid it. No matter how good you are, if you are fighting a dangerous individual you run the risk of severe injury. Ending things before they get out of hand can save you a lot of pain. And if such actions aren’t warranted, you probably don’t even need to be fighting in the first place.
A KIck to the side the knee is an excellent way of taking your opponent out of comission.
I have been lightly kicked there (by accident), fell to the floor and stayed thare for at least 5 minutes before I could stand up again.
The result was a partially tore ligament.
The accident was during a Silat training session. The guru was demonstrating some technique that uses a push os kick to the back of the knee.
Another good strike is a jab (or finger thrust) to the throat. A forcefull stroke can make a stronger opponent gasp and take two steps back. Enough to apply your nike-jutsu (run like hell).
Depending on the context and experience of your opponent the mental side of a good kick to their knee can be nasty as well. Even if it disable them physically from continuing. People tend to freak out when the step and feel like the knee is giving out. At best they have a much lower motivation to continue the fight. At worst it usually inhibits their ability to generate power because their stance is jacked up from babying the knee.
I spend 4 years training in Shudokan Karate in Highschool. It was fun but our no contact sparing lacked reality. I found myself in a real fight once where I pulled a punch. Then I thought to myself this guy is really trying to hurt me and then I kicked him in the groin as hard as I could. No technique more of a soccer kick but it worked. In college I dabbled in boxing and Akido. Boxing was exhausting but the good part was as you said you actually hit and got hit. This was much better than the no contact stuff we did in Karate. But the techniques were more limited. Akido in my opinion was a waste of time. Mostly stand up grabbling with almost no ground fighting at least at the level I was at.
Then after college as a rookie cop in my first department I started Judo and studied it for 3 years. I loved it for the job. You spared in the dojo and it kept me sharp. I found my fights on the street went well because I used what I had been practicing at the dojo. I think the best mix is what we see now in MMA. A mix of some basic stand up striking skills with a heavy influence of ground fighting ability. Most fights do end up on the ground from what I have seen and you need to know how to fight down there.
Pat
I’ll try to expand some, see what do you think. First I have to say that I feel we are all preaching to the choir, because everyone here has some MA background and see it as positive, and wish to strike a balance…
So, as for the best mix, I feel that one needs (in some sort of difficulty/progression):
[ul]
[li] Distance control (maai, for those with Japanese MA background)
[/li][li] Movement: forward, backward, sidestep and the triangulation from FMA
[/li][li] Falling without hurting too much
[/li][li] Basic punches: jab/straight and combos, maybe cross and upper/hook
[/li][li] Low/medium kicks, up to the waistline
[/li][li] A propper guard, not opening up when kicking
[/li][li] Hability to strike while moving
[/li][li] Enough groundwork not to be taken down and to get up fast
[/li][li] Some takedowns/throws
[/li][/ul]
Disclaimer, this list looks a lot like what we do in Kombato.
Maybe that is because it is the only thing I trained for more than a few months, plus, I actually teach a bit.
I hope this does not sound like an ad or something.
I know that Steyr has gone through more hairy stuff than I would like to. Maybe our LEO friends have a say in the matter.
Why I do feel is troublesome to get on the ground: The BG you are confronting has friends, they can strike you from you back while you are tied to one guy. Maybe this is less so for LEO/MIL, because they also walk in groups.
I do understand that is easier to cuff a non-compliant suspect with him on the ground than standing, no from that comes the need to throw them to the floor
The problem with Aikido isn’t really Aikido so much as the way most devotees practice Aikido. In an effort to harmonize with opponents most training has become a cooperative dance practiced against attacks that are nearly devoid of any speed, power or focus. To find an Aiki system that still retains it’s martial applications you usually have to explore Aiki Jutsu systems. The various Aiki ryu can be extremely practical “if” one is willing to engage in reality based applications and training.
The ironic thing about “mixed martial arts” and American eclectics is they are nothing new and are actually a “traditional approach” to the martial arts. When martial arts were about fighting, notions of engaging in only one system or practicing them in rigidly defined ways would have been as laughable as a shooter who only knows how to use a rifle but not a handgun as he trains for the defensive needs of the every day world, and then limits himself to the methods and teaching of a single teacher or school.
This was of course done with the martial arts in the early 20th century as systems became more codified and specifically defined. There was also competition among these various schools (ryu) for that establishment and perpetuation of their particular system and each one began to promote itself as the “end all…be all” of everything you would need to be a well rounded martial artist. But with a rigidly defined system that establishes what is and is not a given system, that is simply not possible regardless of mastery of that particular system.
The rediscovery of a more practical approach to personal defense led to the various eclectics (basically mixed martial concepts) of the 60s and 70s like Kajukenbo, various American Kenpos and purely conceptual ideas like Jeet Kune Do.
As one studies a broad range of valid and effective martial systems, they come to learn that various combinations of any of them become effective so long as they address the common fighting ranges (kicking, boxing, trapping & grappling) and that they address likely attacks and environments and are practiced in a practical and effective manner.
