Possible Reasons for Marksmanship Issue

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

Hey All,

Been busy the last few weeks and unfortunately I took three weeks off from shooting (the longest time off since December). Anyway I am getting better and better with Irons at 50 and 100 yards every time I go out, but I am noticing a consistent problem. It was a bit exaggerated this time since I had some time off, so I figured I would pose it to you guys to see what I can do to improve my groups.

Before I ask though I have two things to say. Yes I used the Advanced Search to look for threads on marksmanship, and no I didn’t find anything. Also to answer Grant’s thread about carbine courses, the reason I haven’t taken a class is that in the year I have owned the carbine I have had no classes come around. I intend to one day. But until then, all I can do is push myself to get better, and ask for help when I need it.

So on with the question: Even when my groups are within 1 and 2 moa (only had two groups in my life that were sub, but I have only been shooting consistently as a hobby for a year and a half), all of the shots that are out of Sub MOA are low and too the right. I never go up and to the left or right, and never low left. Literally every shot out of SUB is low and to the right. This last time I went to the range my first group was 1 moa at 50 yards, second one was 2 moa with two to the low right. Stayed this way for a while, I did have one group that went past 2 moa with two shots outside of two inches.

All of the groups are 5 shot groups (max mag load at the indoor range). All of the groups are 50 yards, on a bench. But I have the same issue sometimes when prone, and when using various sitting ground seated postures my father taught me.

Any suggestions?

The second question would be ways to improve my shooting while standing, but that’s another one animal.

2

are you shooting irons? red dot sight? magnified optics?

3

Irons. Thought I mentioned that.

4

I am assuming that you are a right handed firer. If you are a lefty you probably have another issue.

Low right is usually an issue with trigger, sights, or position. If you are shooting off a bench we don’t have to worry about the latter.

You might be having issues with eye-relief and sight alignment, though if you are consistently firing 1 to 2 MOA I doubt it. Just to be sure- make sure that the front sight is in focus and centered horizontally and vertically in the rear sight aperture and that you have a reference point to ensure that your eye-relief is consistent.

There is a possible trigger control issue as well- make sure that your are applying smooth, gradually increasing pressure to the trigger through the shot. Be sure that you aren’t trying to make the gun fire “NOW” as the sights wobble through the aiming area, but rather that you allow the shot to break as long as the sight picture is acceptable.

There are many ways to get around it, though it is difficult to make the determination without being there.

I would reccomend a regimen of dry fire followed by controlled live fire, cycled consistently. During the dry-fire you need to be sure to pay attention to the front sight and your body. The front sight should be stable throughout the fall of the hammer and you should not lose your focus on the front sight. If you feel any urge to push forward into the gun, you are definately bucking and need to dedicate considerable time to the cycle to eliminate it.

When you get to the range, shoot a group.
Then randomly fill a few mags with your 5 live rounds, randomly interspersed with dummy rounds. Now shoot another group, paying attention to the same issues as above.

Now onto the technical side of this.
What gun are you using, because I think you are about to have people beating a path to your door to find a gun that consistently shoots 1 MOA. I know I am certainly curious.

5

I’m sure that practice regiment is common knowledge for most folks up here but thanks for posting that. I’m not having that much of a problem but I’m going to do as you suggest. Thanks!

6

Thanks Failure2Stop! I will try all of that!

And let me state first that the gun with me behind it shoots 2MOA more then 1MOA, if I implied “consistent” 1 MOA on my end I apologize. I was just trying to give as accurate of a description as I could… :slight_smile: If I didn’t pull to the lower right it would sub MOA (with the guns permission of course) all day… :slight_smile: But that’s the point of marksmanship, and thus me asking.

I am very happy with the accuracy of my rifle, I don’t know if it’s a production fluke, but in my hands it performs as above, and the last two times I have gone shooting with professionally trained shooters, most of which have training on the M4/M16 I have had to pry the gun out of their hands they are so happy with its accuracy. It’s just a M&P15 OR. I figured all M4 were this accurate.

7

cheekweld.

8

cheekweld:

Fair enough, can you explain in more detail? I noticed when I first got the Irons that I felt awkward and people were shooting way better then me. Then I saw some photos of the Magpul guys, and realized the position of my head was all sorts of f’ed up, and my cheek was in the wrong spot on the stock. I adjusted, and I improved. So with that in mind what are you thinking? I have a pinned version of the collapsable standard M4 stock on the rifle.

9

Shooting off a bench you should be shooting consistent groups. Your cheek weld consistency and trigger squeeze are most likely expanding your group size. If you have a standard, heavy trigger that could be holding you back.

Shooting from a rest isn’t going to help your consistency – you’re shooting the equivalent of benchrest with irons.

You need to get instruction and coaching – it doesn’t have to be formal. If you wish to learn to shoot the weapon to YOUR ability you need to develop your individual marksmanship skills and consistency.

There are a number of NRA and other organizations that can help you develop your shooting skills. Not all AR/Carbine shooting and fighting skills are at 25 meters.

1-2 MOA with irons is pretty darned good. Try shooting 10-shot groups and seeing what your general group placement looks like – you’re shooting to the ability of both the gun and ammo. If all it’ll group is 2 MOA, then center the group.

You may be holding as tight as the system is capable of shooting. Don’t let that hold you back!

10

Fair, let me increase the group sizes.

11

cheekweld on a low recoil rifle like an AR is mostly making sure your eye is in exact same alignment to the rear sight, time after time after time.

precision with open sights is not so much about doing it perfectly right, but doing it right consistently…

12

this is why I prefer to shoot NTCH, for a consistent reference point.

13

FTS covered most, but here are some things to consider:

Use a sling and make it tight for stability.

Supported shooting position: Consider using a sand bag or bi-pod to check your zero, then use the prone position, with a sling.

Natural point of aim: Get in your position and adjust so your body and weapon, is naturally and comfortably, pointing at the target. Get into position with an unloaded weapon and build your shooting position by adjusting the sling, eye relief, leg position, elbows, then aim at the target until the front sight in on target, without strain. Close eyes and have a buddy shake the weapon around. Open eyes to see it the sights moved. If it moved, readjust body position, and everything else, until the sights are dead on. Close the eyes and do it again and again, until you can hold proper sight alignment on target, without strain or minimum effort.

Trigger control: You maybe jerking the trigger ever so slightly, but consistently, since the groups are in the same area, low and right. Try dry firing using a dime or quarter, balanced on the barrel. Continue until the coin consistently stays on the barrel when the hammer falls, without changing the sight picture. Concentrate on smooth trigger application and front sight stability, while aiming on a blank sheet of paper. You will immediately notice if the sights moved. It’s a wall drill for rifles.

Proper breathing technique: I’m use to acronym BRASS (Breath (Let half out) Relax, Aim, Slack(Take up) and Squeeze (Until the trigger breaks). There are many variations to this technique, but the key is to consistently do, what ever breathing technique you use. Many use respiratory pause, for their breathing process, the point in which you fully exhale, to pause the breathing process to take the shot. This may or may not work for you. For me, I don’t have the time to concentrate on the sights and target, before I start getting eye blurriness, strain and blow the shot because I held my breath at RP too long and forced the shot, to include snatching the trigger, so I take a breath, then let half out when starting BRASS, which allows me more air and a longer time frame for correct sight alignment and breaking the shot.

The above are some techniques I’ve used, to get the maximum precision out of my weapon, when competing on rifle teams in the past.

Roger