Point Shooting Book

Not sure if this is the right place, mods please remove if not allowed.

I thought some might be interested in this book. It’s been out of print for years and as a result it became expensive to find. Now its back in print and only $15. Mr. Mike Janich of Martial Blade Concepts co-authored it along with point shooting icon Col. Rex Applegate.

Originally published by Paladin Press, this book is an authoritative reference on the combat-proven handgun point shooting method taught by the legendary Col. Rex Applegate. It presents detailed, step-by-step instruction in the system of point shooting Applegate taught to military intelligence operatives and members of the OSS (Office of Strategic Services–the predecessor of the CIA) during World War II. This system allows you to quickly and instinctively get shots on target without using the gun’s sights and while experiencing the physiological effects of life-threatening stress. It also dispels the many myths surrounding point shooting and puts this gunfight-proven method into context with more “modern” techniques. Mike worked hard to great this great resource back in print. It is now available on the link below.

https://www.amazon.com/Bullseyes-Dont-Shoot-Back-Complete/dp/1939467020/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=bullseyes+don%27t+shoot+back&qid=1560796621&s=gateway&sr=8-1&fbclid=IwAR1siE3zc3IzLz8XT6JCg8t-F-lRh3Eni-CRUAMfl-uczZ4dCHEWs-7YjlI

Cool. Go learn this technique, master it. Then come to a class with a reputable instructor. Go against the instructor or a coin holder or even me against the clock. If you win Ill buy you a steak dinner, all the booze you can drink along with all the internet fame.

Who are these coin-holders you speak of? I have a lot of coins.

Got one of these?:

There are a few coin holders on this board.

Wow! the board went white when I posted former reply.

I was being obtuse, I lurk the pistol-training.com forum every now and again.

There is no doubt that possession of a coin does equate to a good handle on accuracy and pistol handling.

The downside is that you have to attend a pistol-training.com class to compete for one.

No way I could do it from concealment, but according to Rob Vogel I’m pretty fast out of my duty Raptor. I might shoot it and see. Right now I’m focusing on trying to crack 460 with my production pistol on the mover.

Im not an expert by any means, but Ive found practicing with sights will allow you to point shoot effectively.

For example- I dont wait for the dot on targets 5-7 yards and in if it feels good- I shoot and pick up the dot in recoil. Im not good enough to see the dot and still get sub second draws yet- but im getting mostly As and all within C-zone.

Repetition with sights builds consistency.
I’ve never practiced point shooting with a pistol.

One of the problems with discussing “point shooting” is that it lacks a common definition and reference. Some methods are point-and-hope. Others involve developed body orientation and indexing using alignment and/or superimposition of combinations of limb, hand, gun, or gun parts. You won’t win a fast coin or a match with a lot of it, but you can do some pretty adequate to good shooting where conditions allow or require.

You’re on the right track. You’re not point shooting on those 5-7 yard targets, you’re seeing what you need to make what you define as an acceptable hit. Seeing the target and the back of your gun/optic squares up on it is enough.

One of the best things I’ve heard recently that resonated with me was on Steve Anderson’s podcast when he differentiates aiming vs seeing the sights. Once you have a good index index it’s just a matter of applying the amount of visual patience and trigger control to make the shot.

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You are correct 100% Sir. Lots of miss information and lack of actual understanding on the subject by the masses. Point shooting, index, instinct, threat focused, target focused… all similar but not the same. Although the masses see them as such. A little like, front sight focus, flash sight picture and subconscious sight picture…all different, all using the sights but in different ways.

Actually, that is not necessary. I was in an Ernest Langdon class a couple of weeks back, and he’s the keeper of the flame ( or coins) since Todd Green passed away.

Excellent class, by the way. I picked up some very helpful stuff on target transitions, and building a grip to control lateral dispersion.

And I’ll agree with sighted fire every time, versus actual point shooting. Tom Givens did an analysis of the actual records regarding the Shanghai Municipal Police shootings. Applegate was a disciple of Fairbairn, and adopted his methods. Using Fairbairn’s own records of officer involved shootings, the cops did worse than the untrained Chinese bandits. Attend a Rangemaster class, and he’ll be happy to share the data with you. Pretty fascinating stuff.

If you want to use a body index position at very close range, there are a lot of people teaching that. A few even teach it correctly. The ones that come to mind are Hard-Wired Tactical Shooting (Dobbs and Bolke), the Shivworks Cartel (Douglas, Burch, Lindenman, Sharp, Aprill and Fry) and some others. That is technically unsighted fire as ST911 mentioned, but the sights are aligned on target.

I’d pay a lot of attention to what those people teach.

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Point shooting is in general miss understood, miss interpreted and miss quoted. Here is just my thoughts on the subject.

When we learn to shoot a pistol, one of the “fundamental skills” is how to aim it. In most cases the instructor will take a lot of time defining the classic “correct sight alignment and sight picture” such as:
Align the front sight vertically centered in the notch of the rear sight, so that there is an equal amount of light space on either side of the front sight post. The eye / eyes should be focused on the front sight (clearly focused), with the rear sight and the target both out of focus (fuzzy focus).

Sound familiar? Of course it does. Now eye dominance is most often discussed, grip, stance, how the shooter must look “through” and not over the pistol and so on…All sounds about normal, right? But has anyone taken the time to explain to that student what aiming means? What is it in its rawest form? Webster’s dictionary defines it as:

1: To direct a course. Specifically: To point a weapon at an object. Aim carefully before shooting.
1a: POINT: To aim a gun. b: To direct toward a specified object or goal. A story aimed at children
2: ASPIRE, INTEND. Specifically: She aims to win.
*So according to Merriam-Webster, aiming is carefully “pointing”. Now hold that thought, we will come back to it.

Why Use Sights: Let’s dig a little deeper. We are taught to use the sights on the pistol because, well because that’s what is the norm and it’s easy, the sights are directly above the bore of the gun. If the sights are perfectly aligned with the intended target then the bore is aligned with the target and the bullet will strike the intended mark. Simple…So what we are in effect saying is we are using something on the gun, to index the bores alignment with the target. The fact that “sights” have become the norm is neither here nor there. If we did not have “sights”, we could use the edge of the pistol, back plate of the slide, firing pin hole or some other reference point on the gun to index the bore… right? Yes, absolutely correct we could and can, that is called INDEXING the gun.

Accuracy v Aiming: In reality when we fire a pistol, the bullets travels down the rifled bore. That bore is straight and will give the exact same accuracy regardless to how the gun is aimed (using, open sights, red dot, scope, slide indexed) or point shoot. In other words it is not the aiming device that makes it more accurate, it is the correct aligning of the bore using WHATEVER indexing / aiming system the user is most proficient in, that makes he / her accurate with that pistol. The bore does not become less accurate because the sights are missing, but because the user has no experience using any other means of aiming.

Indexing the Gun: Again, you can use the side of the slide, the tip of the slide, the back plate etc. Just as if you we using sights. This of course requires that you look at the gun, the same as you would look at the gun if you were using a classic front sight aiming system.

Subconscious Sight Picture: This is often referred to as Threat Focused or Target Focused. First, the proper grip on the handgun is crucial. The beaver-tail or tang of the handgun needs to be centered in the middle of the strong hand wrist, so that the bore is aligned with the forearm bone of the dominant hand. The trigger finger should be STRAIGHT down the frame of the pistol. The MAIN and true difference is UNLIKE front sight-focused shooting (where the front sight is clear), with target-focused shooting the target is clear and it’s the front sight that is blurry.

Point Shooting: So if aiming is (as defined by Webster’s dictionary*) a type of carefully pointing, is then point shooting aiming? The answer is YES, if done correctly. To most untrained in point shooting may think it’s just point the gun randomly in the direction of the target and pull the trigger. That my friends is not point shooting. Point shooting is aligning the bore with your forearm bone and then using your natural body’s kinesthetic alignment to get the pistol bore to the intended target. First, the proper grip on the handgun is crucial. The beaver-tail or tang of the handgun needs to be centered in the middle of the strong hand wrist, so that the bore is aligned with the forearm bone of the dominant hand. The second key ingredient is that the eyes have a laser like focus on the specific point on the intended target. The trigger finger should be STRAIGHT down the frame of the pistol. As the shooter looks intently at the target the handgun is instinctively presented out to exactly where the eyes are focused by pointing the index finger, then locking the body in place, then squeezing the trigger.

So to recap:

  1. Front Sight focused aiming (requires starring at gun)
  2. Subconscious Sight Picture (requires starring at target and seeing sights in your peripheral vision) If you like red dot sights, it kind of hard to argue against this logic! You don’t look at the dot, you look at the target and put the dot on that.
  3. Indexed Shooting (requires starring at the gun)
  4. Point shooting (requires you just stare at the target)

All the four “aiming” systems above have a place in firearms shooting and training. Each have benefits depending on what the shooter is trying to achieve, distance and situation he / she is in. All 4 of these sighting have merits and the negatives. There is no WAY, just ways…you need to find YOUR way.

Somehow, this doesn’t sound like the right takeaway from the feedback you got here.

I think you have to consider WHEN you would point shoot: when you don’t have time to use the sights. That’s most likely to be a serious self-defense situation, when the BG’s gun is swinging towards you and you have .5 seconds to either stop him or die. You’re NOT going to think about lining up arm bones, “locking the body,” blahblahblah. Real-life point shooting is entirely unconscious and instinctive.

do you know that Appelgate was limited to 50 rds per student for their “training”?:slight_smile: The men for whom combat point shooting did not suffice are not here to tell us of its failures. We know of lots of such failures in matches, tho. Are we to believe that suffering mere peer-pressure causes more misssing than being shot-at? In matches, point shooters get to carefully orient their bodies towards their targets, get all ready, etc. When it’s for real, the conditions will not be so nice, eh? Pointing does work, to 10 ft, on fully exposed torsos, and that is what’s needed for the great majority of civilian defense shootings. In fact, you rarely have to fire at all and misses have changed a lot of minds, as have warning shots. I"ve pointed guns at men 6x in my life and all of them surrendered or fled. That’s 6x more than Elmer Keith or Ed McGiven ever did such a thing, yet thousands of guys believed in their teachings.

Yea. And move.

I’ve been using the term “point aiming” for a long time.

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Spam

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Yeah, we have been getting a bunch of those lately. Do me a solid, if you spot one, use the report post button. We’ll perma-ban the spammer, and report them to an anti-spam service that blocks them across a lot of platforms.

You got it

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