Piston AR Sticky Please

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

Some new member just posted a thread in which he asked whether he should get a DI or piston AR. Pretty standard. In about 5 or 6 posts, the thread was closed.

It no longer seems reasonable, at least to me, to allow ten of these threads to pop up every month and then close them immediately. I do not mean to criticize the administration in any way, I simply believe that such action restricts the original poster’s, any guest’s and really any member’s access to respectable, informative and ultimately helpful responses from experienced professionals.

Personally, I believe M4C has been past due for a “Why you should NOT buy a piston AR” sticky for some time. I have created this thread in order to see if anyone else feels the same, and if so I’d like to hear some suggestions for information to be presented in this sticky. Off the bat the big one that comes to mind is naturally Defense Review’s article on the subject:

http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/

I know there is plenty more compelling and respectable evidence available on the internet, and I’d like to hear what you have to offer. Perhaps if a decent enough compilation of evidence is assembled, we can take at least one good step towards ridding our lovely AR world of piston scum. I suggest refraining from just posting home videos on Youtube in which guys bury DI ARs in sand and blow through mags, as such unprofessional testing serves only to inspire pointless argument and drama.

I also understand that few people actually pay attention to the stickies. This is unfortunate, but at least if a DI vs. Piston thread is ever posted after the creation of this sticky, we can simply link to the sticky and close the thread. All problems solved. Questions answered, unprofessional drama avoided.

In addition, I understand that piston AR manufacturers advertise on this website. While it is perfectly understandable to not want to offend the people that keep this site running, I cannot understand denying such convincing evidence as has been stacked up against the piston AR’s claim to superior reliability.

And feel free to tell me that I’m far too inexperienced to suggest such a permanent change to the site, I simply feel it’s a good idea. Thought I’d throw it out there.

Pictures make everything better.

2

While I don’t disagree with you the OP could usually answer their own question just by searching and reading the information already here on the site.

If I know which thread you’re talking about it was closed because it was quickly headed towards a “my such and such piston works great so you can pund sand if you think it sucks” thread. Seen too many to let it continue.

3

This sites history shows us that asking someone to search for something is, apparently, waaay too much to ask for.

4

I think it would be good to have a sticky on DI vs Piston. I am a piston scum owner :suicide: but i also have nothing against DI’s either. My next buy will be an oooooh so sweet DD MK18 sbr. I think the biggest benefit to a DI gun is the fact that you can ALWAYS find parts for them.

5

I dont think most of us hate piston guns, I know I have no problem with them. I just choose to run DI guns for my personal use, however if someone did ask my advice I would probably steer them towards a DI. I think a sticky is a good idea, but maybe titled “DI vs Piston” or somthing like that, but who knows it would probably end up clogged with shit about how many countless rounds have been fired with no problem from their POFPOS.

6

Maybe a post to the search button - issue is there is always something new to add. I have leaned on the “piston=good upgrade” so i tend to disagree with your tenant of piston bad. Last 3 day course taken was all DI. Previous few were all piston.

Their are some folks who are either so officially for or against its silly. Some based on some bad experience long in the past - a disclosure on last obscenity should be required just as every other post where opinion is similarly based on conjecture or experience years ago - some relative, some simply carry overs of emotion.

That said - a piston sticky that could pertain to piston experience(as opposed to the standard Chevy vs Ford debate) makes sense.

7

This is perfectly reasonable. My original post should not have included anything that would slander piston guns with unwarranted and unsubstantiated claims. I understand that there are LWRCs and POFs that have never had a hiccup. Objectivity ought to be the ultimate goal of any Piston vs. DI sticky, not conjecture. Compiling only evidence to support the proven reliability of the DI system would be sufficient, not evidence to disgrace any piston system. For years piston manufacturers have claimed that their systems improve reliability immeasurably. Simply proving that the DI system is reliable and effective would be enough to discredit this slander.

8

Pax,

Defensereview is the last reference that I would use for an argument. I know where you are coming from on the DI vs. Piston deal. However, where do draw the line. I firmly believe that “self help” goes a long way. Someone could in fact use the ORANGE search button and read through the various threads.

At that point if someone where to ask for clarification or additional info, no one would care. However, all too often what happens is someone reads something somewhere or hears something. They don’t do any research and then start a thread. Very similar to these ones;

  1. Which BCG should I get for my next build?

  2. What’s better, BCM or Noveske?

  3. What lower is best for building and AR?

  4. What do you use for lubricating your AR?

  5. Who makes the best rail?

Etc…etc…etc…

I think you get my point.

9

Give us some details on the picture.

10

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/09/a-clean-wouldnt-hurt/

Gummed up quicker and more due to excessive blow by experienced when shooting steel cased ammo. Cheap build, as well. I’m highly surprised that it went 15,000 rounds without issue, if that is true. Bravo Company’s Filthy 14 made it to only 13,010 before having an extractor spring replaced. Not saying thats not incredibly impressive… Just surprised that a Bushy/RRA-level build went 2,000 rounds more on its spring.

11

I’ll take some salt with that. In any case, it is far beyond the average life in any case. It also doesn’t do anything to bolster the case for getting a piston.

12

Built both on my own. This thread your speaking of is going to get kind of silly really quick, but I’ll play ball.

The DI is a proven design in the ar. It works. The piston is “fairly new” to the ar? There are highly polarized veiws on each. Hence, the resulting silliness.

I’ll paraphrase myself again. Both work for me. Pistons not the holy grail and it’s not the anti-Christ. Its a rifle.

13

Exactly right. I remember the time when they broke the news that the Marine Corps was going with the 45 G.A.P.

Likewise, the Firearmblog spends way too much time discussing boogereater guns (like Variants of the Taurus Judge), parrotting things it read on messageboards, and printing articles by guest writers with questionable knowledge–I checked on their today and the guest writer is bragging about the .357 magnum being rated at “. Using Federal 125 grain JHP it’s a formidable gun. This load is rated at a 97% one-shot stop if you do your part.”: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/08/05/sw-model-19-the-police-officers-perfect-revolver/

14

Another reason to not want a Judge. So I won’t be a boogereater!:D:D:D:D

15

Alright. I’d like to see an objective, closed sticky entitled “Piston vs. DI” or something along those lines that contained only information, not any opinion. But. Whatever. Oh well. We’ll get by without it.

16

As a noob to the site not a noob to the AR15/M16, I think it would be good to have an informational sticky listing/comparing the different manufacturers. I have 2 of each and I think both systems have merit.

When I have been asked about piston uppers or rifles and I always suggest they buy a quality DI upper and a AA kit that way if they don’t like it they can convert it back easily.

17

Getting the AA op rod bushing out of the gas tube port in an upper is damned near impossible. In fact, I think it just might be impossible. I had to buy a new upper when I wanted to switch back to DI from my AA kit. Not very expensive, just a bitch to have to move the barrel, forward assist and dust cover… When I could have saved $90, not done any work and had a better gun by just sticking to DI.

18

I don’t think it’s a bad idea, I just think it’s a bit of a pipe dream. Ultimately it won’t stop people from starting new “should I get a piston or a DI” threads weekly, but it would provide an easy place to link them to before locking the thread.

I haven’t done a “member survey” hardware thread lately, maybe I should do one on operating systems. :eek:

19

If someone wants to do it, knock yourself out. There are quite a few different designs and no standards when it comes to the piston.

20

You are right about some being a pain, some you have to beat into place and others like my colt you have to use loctite on or they will fall out. I have removed 2 from BCM uppers easily but my stag would take alot of force.