Perplexed with 5.45x39 AR

AR/M4 Beyond 5.56/.223
1

Synopsis: had a S&W MP15R complete rifle. Bought ~ 3K rds of Wolf 60gr FMJ. Put an Osprey piston on it and it worked fine. Decided to make an AR pistol so cut the barrel down to 11", recrowned and rethreaded, put a Vortex on it, and got a pistol buffer tube (of course also bought a new lower so it was all legal and such). Still used the Osprey but had to not only open up the gas port a tad but also cut a coil at a time from the buffer spring until it functioned properly (that is of course a fine line between less resistance and enough “oomph” to strip a new round and return to battery).

In the current ammo madness/idiocy I decided that I’d hold onto the 5.56 that I had and use the 5.45 as “training” to maintain proficiency. Therefore I wanted to convert the pistol back to a carbine. Ballistic Advantage had (in stock) a 14.5", midlength, pencil profile barrel that is nitrided. Put it on and perm-attached a BCM A2X extended FH. Moved the Osprey over once again. Also made sure the orange extra power hammer spring was in place.

Now, Ballistic Advantage says that a piston system may require opening up the gas port a bit. Figured I’d try it as is and see how things went.

Well…

Went to zero today, both irons and Aimpoint T1. Had bolt-over FTF, a few solid primer strikes but apparent duds, as well as short stroking and closing on an empty chamber. Also (disturbingly) couldn’t extract an unfired round manually; if fired it would extract fine but on the “duds” I couldn’t get it out unless I pulled back HARD on the CH while simultaneously gently prying the front of the bolt carrier back with a screwdriver. Started to get pissed…

Switched the buffer spring to the one I had cut down for the pistol AND opened a different case of Wolf just to see. No more bolt-overs or inability to extract an unfired round. However, still had a few “clicks” on an empty chamber and apparent duds, but overall much better.

First, is Wolf really that crappy and hit-or-miss from lot to lot that something as simple as manually extracting a round can be an issue? Also, are there that many duds? I’m talking solid primer strikes, and most of those fired on a second chambering.

Secondly, while I wondered if the cut-down pistol buffer spring would “overgas” the gun it is obvious that there is still an occasional eject-but-not-pick-up failure (the “click” on an empty chamber). I checked the tail end of the buffer to see if it was getting beat up and there wasn’t a mark on it so even with the cut-down spring it is still borderline on impulse.

Right now I’m leaning towards Wolf being feces ammo.

2

No drop in piston system can possibly work optimally across every barrel length and especially different calibers. I’d consider it the most likely problem here.

I never consider cutting the action spring the right thing, it is too likely to cause feeding malfunctions.

See if it will run DI or as it’s a training only gun, open the gas port with the piston until it runs with a normal spring.

3

I tend to agree, coupled with Wolf’s inconsistent performance from one lot to another. And yeah, that cutting of coils walks a VERY fine line that one more might be enough to make it extract/eject but too weak to strip another round and go into battery. Rather precarious. However, I already had one from the pistol conversion so I figured I’d give it a whirl.

I’m gonna call Ballistic Advantage and see what size they recommend opening up the gas port to.

4

Once you open up the gas port there is no going back unless you get an adjustable gas block.

Wolf is steel cased and I believe the 5.45 is corrosive. Steel cases do not seal the chamber very well and allow gases to leak past the neck and leave residue. Clean the chamber thoroughly and with the right type of cleaner before opening up any gas ports. Clean the gas block thoroughly as well

Littlelebowski’s thread on cleaning the 5.45- https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=87949

5

I don’t understand adding a piston to a “low cost training setup” but what is the most likely answer? Wolf 5.45 ammo won’t run at all and you’ve uncovered the hidden truth of it or moving around that piston to different setups is not a good idea?

6

I’d convert back to DI, pronto. You’ve caused yourself all sorts of problems in what is a turn key setup.

7

I’ve been thinking about it. Need to find a bolt carrier first, and in this environment it’s slim pickins’! I can take one from another AR but then I’m still short one. IIRC the one I had I put with another 5.56 bolt and traded off some time ago as the Osprey comes with it’s own carrier.

8

I think it’s “C”, all of the above.

9

I have to agree.

With the proper size gas port, gas system length for the barrel and a heavier buffer, DI is an extremely reliable system.

10

I assembled Adams Arms stuff into a piston 5.45, it wasn’t long before I converted it to DI. The DI works perfectly, how can a piston top that? With DI there is no piston assembly that must be cleaned every time you shoot with corrosive milsurp ammo, a significant savings of time. I hung on to the AA piston stuff, I will make an SBR with it when my papers arrive, otherwise I would have sold it.

11

Million dollar question: can DI overcome the inconsistencies of Wolf?

Gun show this weekend…I may try and find a carrier and midlength gas tube (still have the rings I took off when I converted to the Osprey). If it doesn’t do any better DI then I’ll open up the gas port for the Osprey. I have well over 2K rounds of Wolf, so it’s gotta work one way or another!

12

OK… Do you think Wolf won’t run in DI or something silly like that? I ran thousands of rounds of Wolf through DI guns both 5.56 and 5.45 with no problems. Folks here have seen me do so in classes. So, get over your Wolf worries and stop dumping money into silly piston setups. Also…why are you NOT running surplus 5.45 ammo? That’s the best reason to own a 5.45 AR.

Must. Not. Bang. Head. On. Wall.

13

For starters, I spelled out the differences in two different case lots of Wolf above, albeit with the piston. We’ll see if it continues with DI.

Secondly, I’ve had the Osprey for several years. Never had any major issues until now…BUT I’m using a midlength nitrided barrel now, so more variables introduced into the equation. And as far as pistons go I’ve not yet had any issues with my 416 upper on MR556 lower. :wink: Of course of those two piston systems that really is comparing fine wine to Mad Dog!

Lastly, I bought the Wolf because it’s non-corrosive and at the time I bought it (and the MP15R) it was cheaper than brass-cased 5.56. Yeah, I’ve read your thread about corrosive myths but hey, it’s my $$$ right? Which, since you’ve shot both, brings me to ask: did you notice a difference between surplus and Wolf as far as function is concerned? i.e. is surplus more ignition-reliable and function-consistent?

14

No, you spelled out the problems with 2 different cases of Wolf resulting from the piston setup you installed and proceeded to mess around with instead of just running a DI setup. To answer your question, I noticed no difference between corrosive and Wolf but…why run Wolf when corrosive works fine in my factory, not-tinkered-with setup?

You. Are. Overthinking. This.

Honestly, if you’re that afraid of corrosive ammo, sell your 5.45 setups. By not running corrosive, you’re cheating yourself of the very real and tangible cost savings of owning the 5.45 AR in the first place and by dicking around with the Osprey setup, you’ve talked yourself into blaming the ammo that runs well for everyone else instead of the silly aftermarket piston.

You could convert back to DI, buy a coupla different weighted buffers for tuning your gun (MUCH easier than dicking around with pistons), stop worrying about eeeevil corrosive ammo and just rinse your damned weapon with water after shooting and stop worrying about silly stuff. If you do so, read my article running a 5.45 DI setup with over 24 thousand rounds of mainly that eeevil corrosive ammo through it. Or don’t listen. Anyway, the answers are right here in front of you.

15

Amen.

OP is worried about Wolf feeding right but has no worries about cutting springs or retrofitting a gun designed to have a DI system to something it was never intended to do, ie: be a piston gun

I get the same looks in classes as LL… “You run Wolf? I heard that stuff sucks”. Well did u see me have any malfunctions all day? No… Thought so. Wolf is fine, it’s that piston set up that is more than likely the problem.

To back to DI, with a standard spring and play with buffer weights.

I have Wolf functioning properly in a 14.5" carbine length BM with H buffer, a Centurion 14.5" LW middy custom build with an H buffer as well. And my PredatAR cycles it without a problem with an H2 buffer.

16

To you and Littlebowski: if you saw it I did mention I’m going hunting for a carrier (tomorrow) and a middy gas tube. I’ll give the DI a whirl for sure.

As far as the Osprey goes I already had it, and (obviously) didn’t have a carrier or gas tube for DI so went with what was on hand. Also already had the cut-down buffer spring so tried it out too. It was all a learning experience/experiment which, while frustrating, thus far hasn’t cost me anything more than the new barrel to convert back to a carbine. Hasn’t panned out too well so I’m heading another direction. No biggie.

As far as buffers are concerned, shouldn’t a standard weight one do just fine? I’ll assume, as with 5.56, that a heavier one would serve to “smooth” things out a bit. However, a standard weight buffer should cut it…almost like an FAL opened up all the way serves for extreme conditions (?).

Regarding ignition, I do have the orange-coated S&W hammer spring for hard commie primers and this is obviously an issue aside from piston vs. DI. What % failures do you guys guesstimate you get, both with Wolf and surplus? Surely, after maybe 600rds or so total that hammer spring can’t be getting weak (?). Also, most fired on the second chambering even though there was a SOLID hit the first time.

17

The heavy hammer spring has nothing to do with your problems. It’s not the problem, the piston is the problem. Go DI, use the heavy hammer spring, stop blaming your piston problems on springs and ammo.

18

:stop:

Bro,
listen to LL. it’s NOT the ammo. The first two paragraphs of your OP accurately describe your problem. Contrary to what some may tell you, “tuning” your gun (to the extent you have) is a great way to make it unreliable. THATS YOUR PROBLEM. period. full stop.

If it helps at all I’ve run thousands of rounds of wolf, barnaul and surplus 5.45 of varying countries both corrosive and non corrosive thru rifles and had very few malfunctions I could attribute to ammo and NONE in ANY caliber in ANY rifle that would cause me to say “wolf sucks”.

as my training instructors would tell me from time to time… “unfuck your shit!!”:smiley:

19

I dont have a AR in 5.45 but I’ve ran thousands of rounds of Wolf/Tula/Silver Bear/surplus ammo in 9, 45, x39, 5.56 and 5.45 (AK74). In all that I had 2 light primer strikes on 9mm Wolf fmj in my G19. Thats it. Its not the ammo

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

20

i have 3 uppers (all d.i.) including the only 11.5" smith ever built
run like a sewing machine. EVERYTHING Lil l’. has said is the gospel of 5.45. stop trying to reinvent the wheel the reasons u did things do not make sense. why the 5.45 is in use today ???
CHEAP AMMO. also all kinds run thru mine. spam cans were cheaper only reason i use it wolf is fine also

u.m. wont v.

good luck