Paul Gomez on 9mm vs .45 (video)

General Firearms Handguns - Semi Auto
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Southnarc, F2S, as well as quite a few others vouch for him. That pretty much ends the debate: https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1312819&postcount=16

Back on topic. Here’s something I haven’t heard mentioned yet. As far as the topic of sticking with a caliber you feel comfortable shooting and controlling just fine. Why not look at it by the numbers? After all, a lot of this stuff is subjective until you put it on the shot timer, or use some other method to come up with rock solid data. Why not try running something like Matt Burkett’s Timing Drill, and see how well you run it with 9, 40, and 45 or any other calibers you may be considering?

http://www.doublealpha.biz/courses-tips/matts-tips/#c200

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I agree, you should do timer drills but at the end of the test you also have to add up the weight of the bullets in the target.:smiley:

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I’d rather put an end to this whole debate, but with one final note. Many people support James Yeager, and we all are quite aware of the asshattery he is capable of. So merely having several people vouch for him really doesn’t really hold much weight in my book. I’ve made my point about the company people keep.

I did initially apologize for some of my comments, only to be jumped on after said apology, hence the retraction. With him being a “token white cop” and all(his words, not mine), it’s obvious he has at least one serious flaw in his moral fiber. Now, I’ll just stay away from this asinine topic, after all the 9/.45 caliber debate is childish at best. Mr. Gomez made a youtube video trying to justify his views on the 9mm vs .45 debate, which in my unwelcome opinion shows his training background is obviously Yeager influenced. I’ve said my peace.

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Your “book” doesnt matter either.

That said the people who have vouched for him (Gomez) arent afraid to put their name with their comments.

And no, you havent made any point about the company he keeps. In fact you havent made a valid point yet. If you knew what you continue to babble on about, then you’d know that Gomez is no longer affiliated with Yeager or Tactical Response, or Suarez or Suarez International. A small amount of research on your part and you’d know why. Also, as a business man, you have to appeal to multiple perspective students. Whether you like it or not there are still many people that like Suarez’s and Yeager’s instruction, and will defend them much the same way others defend Vickers, Harrington, Howe, Rogers, etc.

Your apology wasnt. You apologized if your comments offended people. You dont have the humility to apologize for being wrong or not knowing what you are yapping about.

Being a “token white cop” is serious moral fiber? You need to understand somethings. As evidence by your previous posts on the subject, you really arent in any position to question another persons morale fiber. Furthermore you need to understand context. How/Why that comment was made.

With what little value you’ve brought to the discussion, you should’ve stayed away from the onset. While the 9mm vs .45acp debate is stupid, Gomez’s views are pretty much supported by everyone in field of Terminal Ballistics. He has learned from our own Dr Roberts as well as Dr Sherman House, another respected person in Terminal Ballistics (and one you have also called out in this thread). Why is the video not welcomed? Did he lie? Were any of his points incorrect?

As for your claim that his training background is Yeager influenced, so what? Secondly, I’ve known Paul for sometime now, well before he got together with Yeager and TR. His methods have remained the same, with a few inherent tweaks that every instructor does. You can look at his training background and see names like Tom Givens, Jon Farnham, Andy Stanford, etc.

65

Oh these threads always make me chuckle. “Stopping power”, criminetly, with the study of ballistics and the broad availability of the information on the internet (including this site), aren’t we past such sophism?

The projectiles are damn near the same size. If they are capable of penetrating to the same depth the whole discussion of the difference in bore diameter (which is less than a tenth of an inch) is pointless. Look at some of the ballistics gel sectional photographs, I suspect unless they were labeled most of us wouldn’t be able to differentiate a 9mm wound cavity from a .45.

I do usually end up carrying a .45, but it isn’t because of some misconceived notion about “stopping power” it’s because I’m a fuddy duddy who still prefers a 1911.

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This thread needs to return to the topic posted. Failing that, I will simply remove the tangent posts as trashing the entire thread would only reward asshattery.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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The recent “Miami Zombie” incident reminded me of this and every other thread I’ve read on the matter. Does anyone know what caliber the officer that shot the perp used?

There is your real-life example of a crazed-druggie. Either way. He was shot several times.

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Not sure how much that can tell us unless it is known where he hit his target. Any further details?

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This.

Drugs or no drugs, as Doc Roberts says, (paraphrasing) the only reliable way to stop a man is to make a CNS hit. If hit anywhere else, all bets are off and the results will differ from person to person based on psychological effects vs physiological effects.

Also, like Defoor puts it, you either hit a timer or a switch. Much better to hit a switch!

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Cleaned up

Anything posted from here on out that doesnt involve the content of the video or the topic of the video will be deleted and an infraction issued. Any other topic needs to be discussed via PM or a new thread started.

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All the research I am familiar with seems to indicate pretty clearly that all the standard service calibers work (and that 10mm is the most badass).

There should be a marginal performance increase as bullets get bigger and faster but whether that’s worth the tradeoff you make in capacity and follow-up speed is something the user has to decide.

A heavier bullet will perform better on intermediate barriers, a faster one should do better on soft armour…or that is my general understanding.

It seems to me that the key is to understand the specifics of the choices you are making regarding caliber, bullet type, bullet mass, bullet velocity, and platform, and make those choices on an informed basis.

If you believe that your most probable threat is a black bear attack while working in the bush, I think a light, fast 9mm is at a disadvantage compared to a 200gr, hot loaded 10mm.

If you believe your most probable threat is a group of crackheads, a high-cap 9mm is probably a much better choice than an 8-shot Wilson.

So my take is that they all work; some have marginal performance increases in one area at the expense of marginal performance decreases in another. Understand the tradeoffs you are making and make intelligent decisions that are not based on any of the following:

  1. nostalgia
  2. tv
  3. who is friends with whom
  4. movies
  5. somebody else’s most probable threats
  6. testosterone*
  7. estrogen

*Unless the testosterone helps you to choose 10mm, because let’s be honest…us 10mm guys are freaking awesome.

For the record i usually shoot a g17. It is only when I’m being extra awesome that I rely on the g20.

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Rounds on target with the caliber you hit best with. That is all that needs to be said. A miss with 9mm is the same as a miss with any other round.

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In the last decade or so, ammo engineers have produced a superb generation of 9 mm projectiles that offer penetration in the ideal range and that are capable of good performance after common intermediate barriers. In test after test, most officers demonstrate a higher qualification score when shooting 9 mm compared to other common service calibers. Smaller statured officers and those with small hands tend to shoot better with 9 mm. Service pistols tend to be more durable in 9 mm than those in .357 Sig and .40 S&W. In a time of fiscal austerity, 9 mm ammunition is certainly less expensive. For CCW and most urban LE duty, there are a lot of advantages in carrying a 9mm: easy to shoot–especially one handed, relatively inexpensive to practice with, lots of bullets. When I injured my strong hand a few years ago and lost its use for several months, I found out how much more effective I was using a G19 weak handed compared to a 1911. I suspect in the coming months many LE agencies will shift to 9 mm given the benefits noted above.

[i]While I am not a big fan of the .357 Sig, if I was issued one and had lots of free ammunition available, I would have no issues about carrying one on a daily basis.

If I was in a department that issued .40 or was doing a lot of uniformed LE duty around vehicles, I’d be strongly tempted to carry a M&P40–lots of 180 gr JHP’s that do well against intermediate barriers is a good thing.

The nice aspects of .45 ACP are that it makes large holes, can be very accurate, and offers good penetration of some intermediate barriers. Unfortunately, magazine capacity is less than ideal, .45 ACP is more expensive to practice with, and in general is harder to shoot well compared with 9 mm. .45 ACP makes the most sense in states with idiotic 10 rd magazine restrictions, in departments that give you lots of free .45 ACP ammo, or in situations where modern expanding ammunition is restricted due to asinine, illogical regulations.[/i]

If you have the option, carefully assess what your service pistol and handgun caliber needs are, based on potential engagement scenarios, objective measurements of skill including scores and times, and ancillary factors. In closely looking at where I am at today, my bottom line is:

– Despite having shot primarily .45 ACP from 1986 to 2011, I currently shoot 9 mm better than .45 ACP; as a result, I will be phasing out my .45 ACP usage and concentrating on 9 mm.
– I currently shoot an RDS better than iron sights; as a result, all my carry/duty pistols will be equipped with RMR02’s.
– I shoot an M&P9 better than a G17/G19; however I live in CA and have over 100 pre-ban Glock mags, a large supply of Glock accessories and spare parts, and for my current non-uniformed pistol needs find the G19 to be a perfect handgun for daily carry, so I will be focusing on 9 mm Glock use for 2012.

Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to carrying it. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.

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My question is, if the 9mm and the .45 are roughly equal, then why should people in mag restricted states pick the 45 since it is more difficult to shoot well?

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I think the .45 is actually quite tame, it’s more of a push back recoil. The 9mm is more of a snappy pop up recoil. I’ve never heard anyone say the .45 is difficult to shoot.

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Well I certainly agree. But many have cited the 9mm’s superior ease of shooting versus the larger calibers.

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I do agree that compared to .40 & .357 Sig, the 9mm is tame. Nothing can beat either caliber with a can on the end of them though, damn ATF wait time.

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They are not “equal”, however both met the terminal performance requirements for duty use. .45 ACP can cut a larger permanent cavity and does somewhat better on certain intermediate barriers; however in many cases these incremental terminal performance advantages do not offset the larger mag capacity, cheaper ammo cost, smaller pistol size, and increased accuracy of 9 mm (as demonstrated by higher qual scores exhibited by the vast majority of officers objectively tested via time and score). However, if arbitrarily restricted to a limited mag capacity, then the aggregate “performance matrix” swings back a bit towards .45 ACP. Again, I was primarily a .45 ACP user for 25 years, however times and scores do not lie and I objectively shoot a 9 mm better than my beloved .45’s, thus I am now primarily carrying a 9 mm and feel perfectly comfortable doing so…

79

This validates the one size doesn’t fit all mentality. What works for one person will most likely not work for another. The debate of caliber choice has been going on since Mr. Samuel Colt made all men equal, it will not end until someone makes a weapon that can simply cut through anything it is aimed at.

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Obviously there is the whole capacity factor as well. One cool way I heard it put before was from Paul Gomez, “Ammo in the gun = time in the fight.” I think that’s a great way of putting it, and very valid.

I used to shoot .45 a lot and have since moved to a 9mm. I could list a lot of different reasons why, but the only one I really care about anymore is it’s just easy. I can run the gun SHO/OSHO, and I can run it rapid firing one-handed like it’s nothing. I base that on what I’ve run on the shot timer, splits, etc. I can do the same with .45, but the 9mm is just plain easy to do it with. I’m used to doing things the hard way, so 9mm is a refreshing change.